Unknown Origins

Claire Morris on Creative Studio Leadership

May 10, 2022 Claire Morris Season 1 Episode 115
Unknown Origins
Claire Morris on Creative Studio Leadership
Show Notes Transcript

Claire Morris is Chief Studio Officer at Founders Factory, the world's leading venture studio and accelerator, where she helps build and scale tech startups - powering founders to go further faster where she has turned more than 50 early-stage ideas into the next generation of tech companies.

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Music by Iain Mutch

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Roy Sharples:

Hello, I'm Roy Sharples, welcome to the unknown origins podcast. Why are you listening to this podcast? Are you seeking inspiration? an industry expert, looking for insights or growing your career, I created the unknown origins podcast to provide access to insights and content from creators worldwide with inspirational conversations on storytelling, about art, architecture, design, entrepreneurship, fashion, film, music, and pop culture. Claire Morris is Chief studio officer at founders factory, the world's leading venture studio and accelerator where she helps build and scale tech startups are willing founders to go further faster. During her 20 year career in digital and tech, Claire has managed numerous teams across several leading agencies and startups at founders factory, she now leads an excellent venture, which over the past five years, has turned more than 50 very early stage ideas into the next generation of tech companies. Hello, and welcome clear. So what attracted you to this domain in the first place?

Claire Morris:

It's been a unusual journey in some ways. So if I think back to my childhood, I always saw myself as quite a Majan, ative, and creative child I was kind of always crying scrapbooks and telling stories, but I was also quite practical. So I kind of like using my hands. And, you know, doing wasn't just kind of into just theory, like to see how things worked. So I suppose that that fan, those foundations actually grounded me in kind of like art subjects at school. And I really enjoyed doing art. And so I naturally wanted to do spend more time doing art. So I just chose kind of those creative subjects. And I'm sure you know, are people out there of a certain age know that there was quite limited choice then. So you either went into kind of art a level or CDT, which I think was woodwork. And I, I don't know, I just couldn't see myself in the woodwork studio every day. So I kind of followed the art route. And then I Yeah, got accredited to Manchester, and started a degree in fine art painting and printmaking. And I think at the time, I had this really kind of, you know, sort of dream that people were going to pay me for my paintings, I was just going to sit all day in a studio and paint what came to my mind. And it was, it was all very romantic. But I think after a few months, kind of in a studio in Manchester, I quickly realized that I was actually getting quite lonely, and I don't know whether it was, you know, it wasn't the the lack of enjoyment, but I quickly realized that actually, maybe painting was more of a hobby for me, and actually, what really drove me and what got me excited was actually input from people and solving problems. And, you know, there wasn't necessarily those problems to solve when you're kind of painting what, you know, kind of things that come from inside. So, I quickly had a sort of, you know, mid cause crisis, and went to speak to a few people and, and actually got drawn to more of a kind of traditional graphic design route. So, after the end of my first year, I changed courses and went on to graphic design, which I, you know, instantly knew, this is why I should have been doing, you know, it was actually about, you know, a creative process, there was input, you were solving problems with people for people. And I definitely knew that I made the right decision then, when at the time my partner was, you know, I suppose what we call the developer then but you know, people call an engineer now. And he was in computing into computing. So I naturally sort of took the Graphic Design Foundations but started to specialize in kind of flash and director that you know, lingo and just sort of, I was never an expert at it. But I really liked the way that actually designing digital solutions for people was sort of something that I naturally found more enjoyable. And I think I don't know what it was in me but the print side of graphic design, I would, you know, was always so scared of sending stuff to print that you'd end up with like this final piece of graded work and someone would tell you something would be wrong in it and you would just be mortified. So I liked it from very early on. I liked the fact that with digital digital, you could iterate on it a lot easier. And you know, you could be quicker you could work quicker and I think that's probably really where this kind of, you know, enjoyment in fast iteration failing fast, you know, finding things that work came from really so yeah, so I when I left uni, I went to work at a design agency in Manchester called the chase, who was quite well known at the time for doing I think they did the Football Museum branding, they were kind of a traditional advertising agency did a lot of print and annual reports and kind of big brochures. There weren't a lot of DNA D awards, but I joined the kind of digital team, which was me and another guy. And in a in an organization of 30. People, it seems weird. Now to have the digital team as the smallest team, but we would do like our flash websites, and we would do you know, kind of digital advertising stuff. But I just, I just really enjoyed it. And I think what I liked about it the most was, yeah, just that the idea that you could instantly, you know, see a reaction to things and you could, you know, change it on the fly. And actually, the technology, the changes in technology meant the creative process changed in a little way as you move along, which actually was really exciting. So rather than becoming like a master of a skill, which kind of was the more traditional painting route that I thought I wanted, actually just being challenged all the time and having to learn new ways of working and, and figuring out what was best within a creative space, having, you know, having the creativity there. But having kind of, you know, the sort of tooling changing all the time, I found really, you know, interesting. And so I just kind of went through then lots of agencies, lots of design agencies, managing teams, and, you know, doing a lot of digital transformation projects and branding work and advertising and campaigns and spent a lot of time at a company called poke who are quite well known in the day for doing a lot of campaign stuff is Skype and orange. And that was really fun and exciting. But I think I just started to question, you know, how much we actually cared about the output we were producing, and how much we were actually just ticking boxes for ourselves, as opposed to actually understanding how much value we were providing to the audience. I know, you know, a lot of the bigger advertising, advertising advertising agencies I worked in over the years, you know, I don't think ever we sort of looked back at the data in six months time and went, how did that campaign Do you know, how did that website perform? And I think, you know, then I started in my sort of practical way to think like, how do we know we're providing value? You know, how do we know that what we're doing people actually find useful? And why is it so hard to get people to kind of, you know, a lot of I don't know, whether you remember, but a lot of the kind of social media campaigns were all about this kind of user generated content. And, you know, they put campaigns out saying, Put 10 biscuits on your head and send a photo in and, and, you know, it was kind of like a really not lazy way. But you know, it was a nice way to get content. At first, I think quickly, people got very bored of that. And so, you know, it was that kind of those kinds of things that made me a bit disillusioned with kind of advertising and digital advertising or digital digital campaigns and even websites to a certain degree, you know, if you did a big kind of plan and build a big platform for a bank or offer a retail client, it was still very much like, right, we've done our piece of work, we're handing it over, thanks very much on to the next thing. And it wasn't that ability to kind of shape and progress things in maybe the way that I was craving. So I think what happened then was, you know, this is kind of over 1518 year period, I got approached by a small startup called Lost my name, who did kind of they, they, they had a book concept, they were actually on Dragon's Den, and they basically, Mullin children could create a book based on their name, but it would generate a different story every time so that.

Roy Sharples:

Yes, I remember seeing that.

Claire Morris:

Yeah, it did quite well, actually. It got kind of the investment it was asking for, for the percentage, they were asking. But But yeah, after that Dragon's Den, they were, you know, so many orders that they they couldn't cope. But I think from them, they raised money from Google Ventures, and then they grew their team. And it was just a really interesting concept that, you know, wasn't sold on Amazon. So they had challenges there and how to acquire customers, but also the offering, you know, it was like, the best personalized children's book on the market. And I think, you know, the kind of ambition was to inspire the next generation and, you know, make, you know, it was nice, because you could get two children in the same family of book and they'd have different stories. So it was, yeah, it was really great. And I think I was just like, Yeah, I'm there. I'm gonna come and look after the digital team there and actually start to figure out you know, how we can make this product better how we can onboard new customers, how do we grow, you know, the lifetime value of those customers? How do we get them to come back and just going sort of deeper and more in house on something And in a company that did look at the data and try and figure out the best ways to kind of be creative, but but also be commercially viable at the end of the day, I think that really Matt, you know, married my two sides of like the imagination and the creativity, but also the kind of commercial and practical sense. So I was like, Yes, this is, this is really, really fulfilled me. And I think I, you know, playing in the middle of those two things was really rewarding. So I stayed there for a bit, they grew that then I got approached by someone at founders factory to come and look after the digital team there. And they were kind of, you know, their ambition at that point was mental. I think it was to build and scale over 250 businesses over five years. And I was just like, whoa, you know, that made me you know, listen, and it was funny, actually, because the office was over in West London, and I'm in southeast and at first, I was like, I'm never gonna work past Faringdon. You know, that's as far as I'm gonna commute. And I spent 15 years in Shoreditch. And I was like, you know, work life balance, I'm not gonna spend over an hour on a tube, you know, they're there every day. And then literally, I went for the interview. And I was like, Yeah, okay, that's it, I can do this. Every day, that's fine. Because I just loved I loved their ambition. And I just thought it was crazy. And I was just really wanted to be part of it. And, you know, I could, I could see straight from the interview ways that I could help them. And I think that's what I really enjoyed the fact that I think I could provide, you know, I could see the value I could provide from the from the get go, and the team were great. And, you know, everyone was, everyone's very collaborative, it was a great, great culture. And I think, you know, as you get older culture of an organization is really important to you. And you, you know, you want everyone to be aligned against the value and everyone was kind of working towards this ambition. And I wanted in you know, I'm wanting to be part of it. So, yeah, so that's, that is how I ended up from kind of that child into, like, you know, making those scrapbooks. But today, kind of working in the studio with this crazy ambition to you know, build and scale hundreds of companies over the next few years.

Roy Sharples:

That's an admirable journey, instinctive and assured, for clarity, is what the founders factory is a venture capital company that provides private equity financing and expertise to incubate and accelerate startup companies?

Claire Morris:

it basically is similar in some ways to a VC but very different in other ways. And I think the way we think of ourselves is that we see, we have a team of expert operators there to empower founders to go further faster. And the way we do that is, is that we're super hands on, you know, we have a team of kind of over 60 operators, or some of them who have built businesses before, but all with expertise of startups. And we also have a network of kind of people and businesses and partners that can actually accelerate these founders into market or accelerate them to kind of give them bigger and better opportunities as they go. But also, what's different is, is that we do create a lot of these venture ideas from scratch in house, we have adventure design T, and we have a venture Build Team. And in the venture design team, we spend about 12 weeks coming up with a kind of running a sprint as such, but that means coming up with the ideas, doing some sort of validation around those ideas, you know, making sure that the opportunity that we identified is one that we feel confident in. And then we go through our venture build process, which is a six month process. And then we put a small team, a core team around a founder that we then hire in, and that founder has to be aligned with the opportunity that we've identified, but also they have to have the passion and the ability to take that idea and shape it into their own over that six months, so that when they officially spin out of the program, you know, they're confident that they can then take that into our accelerators scale it, raise money against it, and just you know, they're competent, that's, that's going to be the next five years of their life, basically, because we're almost like the, you know, the, where they're at the start, and whether forever, but the start is a very, it's much more intense way of building a business. But I think ultimately, you know, everyone wants the same we're invested in that business as operators. And so giving first time founders or founders that necessarily will be single founders, the chance to work in a team of people that are all enthused and passionate about the same thing is, you know, is is quite a good USP and, you know, I think it's a nice way of working.

Roy Sharples:

Totally! Coupled by the provision that you're providing to entrepreneurs, and your contribution to the British economy and driving innovation and growth. From back yonder. I did a role that was instrumental in building critical mass of support for new technology, innovation and solutions. By showcasing the potential uses and benefits to entrepreneurs and key influencers and decision makers throughout the North American education startup and independent software vendor ecosystems by establishing technical technical standards, and then driving adoption across target markets and communities for entrepreneurs to build their businesses on that technology platform. And the capability that the founders factory have really was the missing glue in the jigsaw. The bottom line is, I wish I'd known about the founders factory back yet back then. And we could have really sprinkled some of your magic in the US startup ecosystem and taking that to a whole different level clear? What is your creative process in terms of how do you dream up new ideas, develop them into concepts, and then bring them to actualization? Perhaps maybe speak through the founders factory process, and also your own one is like a creative studio leader,

Claire Morris:

We have a lot of kind of creative processes, so say at the factory, and it depends at what stage of the business we're at, or it depends kind of how much, you know what, who, that who the founder is, and what what work, they need to be able to, you know, get more confidence around an idea. I think if I, you know, if we look at the on the ground creative processes, they're very similar to kind of design thinking that, you know, any kind of product development cycles that we see in the real world, you know, we definitely have a period of divergent thought, and we discover and we generate concepts, and, you know, we discover and generate kind of user experiences. And then we definitely have that period where we come together and challenge those kind of smaller kind of handpicked ideas, or equally, we're just coming together and user testing and trying to get what is our MVP into the market. So in a traditional sense, probably nothing new there, other than the fact that we don't have any set way of working, we're very much we think of ourselves as having a toolkit of processes. And we like to dip in and out of those dependent on, like I said, what type of venture is what sector is in what type of founder we're working with. So you know, our main mission is to kind of build this repeatable, scalable way of building businesses. But also within that we have identified that actually, the need to be bespoke, the need to be flexible is really important. But then when I think of my creative process, as as a, as a creative leader, I think of, you know, my main job now is to sort of reduce the complexity in the organization and to create focus. Because I want to be able to facilitate the people, the teams to be able to do their best work. And so for me, my creative process is much more about identifying those blockers. And looking at the process as a whole, or the initiatives we have set up maybe around bringing founders in, or how we, you know, budget these businesses or how we, how we build them over a six month period, like what objectives do we set what what does good look like. And I think now, as a creative leader, my job is much more around those strategies, rather than, you know, my process. So creative process is much more around those strategies and making sure that those things are operating in the best way. They can be basically, because I do firmly believe that, you know, if we can have a close knit team that are willing like to speak frankly and quickly, and you know, we've got processes that mean people can work faster and make mistakes faster, then that will mean that all the creative processes below that will will work better than they had before

Roy Sharples:

That makes sense dynamic and adaptive to the situation at hand.

Claire Morris:

I've never been sort of committed to a process so much that if people have said to me Look, we don't think this is working. I'm I'm upset about it. I think the flexibility in any like we need, if we're going to build all these ventures and we need to operate at scale and momentum, then we all need to be flexible. And I think if I'm quite open, if someone comes and says, you know, this process we did six months ago, it's not working now, because of the markets changed or, you know, this founder is not he doesn't they don't operate like that they're not in the same location. They're not in the same timezone or whatever. I'm quite happy. I'm not going to be personally offended. I think as an organization, we need to just, you know, embrace change, and also try and look at ways to simplify the process. And I think the danger would be if we got so tied to a process that we just went blindly down that alley the whole time. I don't think we would build like the best businesses we could if we were we were blinkered in the fact that we thought we'd cracked in this was the one price As we, you know, did for every venture, you know, I don't I don't think that would work.

Roy Sharples:

What are the key skills needed to thrive and survive? As a creative studio leader?

Claire Morris:

Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I don't know, I suppose, the way I see it is that it's probably very similar to that attributes that we look for in our founders. And I think that is what makes founders factory such a great place is that most of the time, in fact, a lot of the time, I'd say, Our founders are aligned with our, you know, with the people on the ground. And I think the things we look for, and things that I think are really important is probably having a very highly balanced IQ and EQ, I think, you know, to be able to survive, you do have to, you know, embrace subjectivity, and, you know, be a diplomat a lot of time because, you know, these these founders are going through, you know, building a business, as, you know, probably, to a lot of people the most stressful thing they're gonna do, and I think, being there for them in an emotion, like an emotional support level, as well as guiding them, you know, there's, there's an art to that. And so I think having been able to have that balance of IQ and EQ is really important for creative leader. And, you know, you do have to make sure that you bring people along for the ride, you know, a lot of it is about storytelling, and, you know, you don't just want to go in and say, No, you know, that's, that's not how we do it here, you've got to kind of guide them. So, you know, we don't really have, we say, we don't, you know, have any time for kind of design delivers, or, you know, product, it's much more about kind of, you know, being open and, and listening. And then I think another skill is definitely around this momentum over perfection is one of our kind of values at founders factory, you know, the Getting Things Done, I think, as a leader, you know, we just have to leverage all of our skills to just make things happen. And I think, in a way, what we want to do is empower people to think outside of their roles. You know, we used to say, back in the day, when I first started that, like, you know, we were trying to cultivate design entrepreneurs and product entrepreneurs. So, within your function, or within your skill set, you still think like an entrepreneur. And I think that that is just, you know, those those, the way that comes across is just from kind of looking where you can provide the most value, and helping out where you can, and a big a big part of that, I think, is remaining decisive and uncertainty, which is a big skill, I think you have to have as a creative leader in in startup land. In fact, I was reading an article the other day about on the New York Times, and it was saying that we were in a creativity crisis, because actually, there's sort of hidden feelings around creativity and, you know, implicit bias around, you know, this, this feeling of uncertainty, and people don't like it. And I noted, it's sort of, I think a lot of people start, sometimes people start factoring anyway. And I think the level of uncertainty we say in interviews, and we explain it, but I think sometimes it is a shock. And I think I was reading this article saying that people, you know, that have this implicit belief that the status quo is safe. And therefore, when people do fail that in its innovative, or we're looking for creative employees, it does scare people sometimes, because they see that as kind of out of the safe zone. And that is definitely we do not operate in the safe zone. So I think being able to embrace that uncertainty is is really key in venture, you know, we are dealing with people that are building their own businesses from the ground up. And you know, this is where the the passion piece comes in, as well. I think you know, you know, I think Steve Jobs used to say something that people with passion can change the world. And I think having that having that as a key attribute of a founder is really important, the passion for what the problem they're trying to solve. But also, you know, we've got a passion for building businesses. And, you know, we're invested in all these businesses. And I think, you know, as a leader in finance factory, or as anyone that works in founders factory, I think having that passion for problem solving is is key, because I think, you know, I think that is what is going to separate successful entrepreneurs from the non successful ones just kind of having that passion and resilience to see it through to the end

Roy Sharples:

Spot on! It starts with a dream full of passion, and the belief and resilience to see it through to fruition. Creativity is the most distinguishable quality for every business leader in every domain. And creative leaders display distinctly different behaviors, values and characteristics than traditional leadership. And they get exponential results. They inspire creativity and others, they build productive teams and drive successful businesses. Yet while many organizations claim that they value creative leadership, most of them pay lip service to the idea of it and revenue up the revenue of the past by promoting lean leaders who do not who do not espouse to creative leadership and instead are perceived as safer, risk averse and more likely to maintain the status quo, which is diametrically opposed to the necessary leadership needed to move things forward. They have the intuition, skills and ability to see the unseen and make the invisible visible by lighting the way into the future by manifesting what is inside and around you, in everyday life, by transcending the ordinary and routine into something that creates new value, by putting things together in a way that has never been done before. As you reflect upon your life and career to date, Claire, what are the lessons learned in terms of the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to success that you can share with existing and also aspiring creative studio leaders?

Claire Morris:

Oh, yeah, that's a tricky one. I mean, obviously, these are quite personal. But I suppose if you, you know, listening to my story, at the start, I would definitely think that it would be about, you know, staying true to what you believe. And I think sometimes a lot of creative jobs, you do suddenly become a victim of, we were talking about before, you know, a victim of the kind of corporate world and you find yourself on the ladder. And I think, you know, you don't do your best creative work in those situations, you know, you achieve and you you know, you get value. And for some people, that might be enough, but I don't, I think I definitely saw my creativity suffer, and my confidence probably to a certain level when you're doing things that fundamentally just don't feel right. And, you know, I feel like, I want to do stuff that I believe in, and I, you know, very much authentic in my roles. And, and I think that is the only way to bring people along with you and inspire your teams and like, the next generation of founders, so I think my, my lesson learned would be, you know, believe in kind of that inner voice of, you know, and ask yourself those questions, you know, am I doing something that I truly believe is of value to me in the wider world, and I'm enjoying it. And I think every time I've not enjoyed something, or not believed in it, that there been times where I've not produced my best work. So that's a lesson I say, to myself, I think I'm talking to myself about 20 years ago now. And then, yes, says I think just communication and people, I've always been a people person, I think this is why I, you know, sort of moved from kind of fine art to design. And I think one thing I would say to anyone aspiring to get this is just, you know, get get to the root of kind of the problem, talk and communicate and, you know, actually start to really understand things. I think a lot of times we can rush through or, you know, presume we know what the the answer is, and I think keeping things super simple is key to that, you know, that there was a quote, I used to use one of our away days from Dave Trott that is kind of a heavyweight in the ad world. And he said that complexity hypnotizes people, I think that is kind of a lesson to anyone, you know, aspiring to become a creative leader. I think keeping things simple. And providing focus for people and yourself is really key to sort of making a difference in life. And, you know, bringing teams along with you is really important, but I think they they also need to see the value in what you're providing or the value in what you're trying to do. So I think yeah, Simplicity is key. Indeed.

Roy Sharples:

Couple of points I just wanted to hone in on entrepreneurship in corporations commonly known as intrapreneurship, which is basically developing new businesses, products, services or processes inside mature and well established organizations to create new value through entrepreneur enterprising, thought and action. But as a true creative as a true entrepreneur, you never truly are going to be able to find complete freedom to create optimally, and those structures and systems because there will always be a constraint, a constraint compromise. I mean, there are advantages that includes things like you know, personal liability protection, business continuity, insecurity, and probably easier access to capital depending on the type of organization that you're in. Though it can be extremely exhausting, and time consuming, having to constantly navigate the bureaucracy and the rigid formalities and protocols to follow that needs to be followed, which can suck the life out of you and deflate your energy and spirit, and more importantly, a personal note to yourself in terms of listening to your story throughout your self awareness. By having the ability to tap into your inner self and psyche to be guided by your moral compass and spidey sense to instinctively follow your own path and drumbeat is inspiring, yeah.

Claire Morris:

Everytime I've taken a step into the unknown, at first, it's always scary, right? You know, you start a new job. But every time I've kind of moved or changed kind of path, let's say it's always I've always, you know, looked back and gone. God, why didn't I do that sooner? And you know, that, that I think that, that, you know, that energy it brings to you is just so empowering that it just makes anything you do the creativity, you know, it just like amplifies that 10x

Roy Sharples:

It does force multiply your productivity and ability to become self actualized by living a meaningful and fulfilled and happy life? Okay, Claire, navigating into the future, what's your vision for the future of studios, agencies and startups, and where do you see the role of creativity play?

Claire Morris:

Yeah, I thought this is this is quite a difficult question. We don't at the factory, we don't really tend to look that far into the future, in some ways, because we're like, what are the problems we're trying to solve? Now? You know, we live we have a vision, but we kind of expect things to change as we go along the way. So I suppose if I take that as a starting point, I think the vision for you know, creativity in general is just that, you know, it's changed so much has changed over the last 1020 years with technology. You know, I don't I think it was one of your podcasts. That was the other podcast, I've listened to the other day where someone made a really good point about the fact that you know, the shared experiences have gone now, you know, everyone needs to get around the watercooler and say, oh, did you watch that advert last night on TV? Or did you see that and that doesn't happen anymore, because everyone, you know, watches things at different times experience things in different ways. So I think, you know, even more, so now, creativity is probably more about having that authenticity, and value in it. And I think the future of kind of startup and agencies is what maybe say the future of startups in a way, is just to really find those problems that are worth solving. And, you know, validating or, you know, validating that actually that what you are trying to build is going to make a real difference to people, because it's much easier to sell, you know, an idea to someone or to raise money against a business, when it's a no brainer, right. And you know, if you can find or unpick those opportunities at the start, then that's kind of the key to success. And I think we will start to see more opportunities to build businesses that will make the world a better place. And obviously, you know, bring people together and all those bigger kinds of social issues at the moment. So I think I think creativity is definitely going to be key to startups. And I think maybe even though we say we're founders factory, you know, we're by no means a factory where, you know, I think getting more and more creative in the way we do build these businesses, and the more chances we have to share those learnings with each other, the more we get, you know, empowered to have the confidence to tell founders, look, this is this is this is this will make your business better. And I think that's just kind of making the process better along the way. So I think that's, that's probably I mean, I don't know what the future of agencies is, I feel like, you know, a lot of them are sort of, you know, I don't know whether you remember, but you know, a lot of agencies, they bought social media companies and tried to do that in house, a lot of corporates took all their design in house, I think agencies have been struggling over the last few years as to where they're best place because, you know, those big budgets seem to be, you know, not necessarily available as what they used to be. And I think there is definitely a need for people to see value in the work that they're paying for. So, yeah, I think the providing value piece is a big thing. And that only happens, I think, when you're constantly iterating, and constantly paying attention to what you're producing. I think you know, to think that you can just go away for six months, make some it get no external input, and then release it to the world. And it's going to be like perfect product market fit is probably quite naive. And maybe that's how we used to operate. But yeah, I think now that constant flow of information to and from is really going to be important.

Roy Sharples:

Creative actions change means It means transcending the status quo by leading Without Frontiers, and seeing around the corners to build a better future through the products, services experiences you make, and the businesses you run. Do you want to learn more about how to create Without Frontiers by unleashing the power of creativity? Then consider are getting CREATIVITY WITHOUT FRONTIERS. How to make the invisible visible by lighting the way into the future. It's available in print, digital and audio on all relevant book platforms. You have been listening to the Unknown Origins podcast, please follow us subscribe rate and review us for more information through to unknownorigins.com Thank you for listening!