Unknown Origins

Mia Reyes on Public Policy

September 17, 2021 Mia Reyes Season 1 Episode 74
Unknown Origins
Mia Reyes on Public Policy
Show Notes Transcript

Mia Reyes provides perspective about creativity in shaping public policy and what it means to have an authentic purpose-led mission-driven approach to unleashing your creative power by making people's lives better and advancing society toward a greater good.

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Roy Sharples:

Hello, I'm Roy Sharples, and welcome to the unknown origins podcast. Why are you listening to this podcast? Are you an industry expert? Looking for insights? are you growing your career? Or are you a dear friend helping to spur your pal on. I created the unknown origins podcast to have the most inspiring conversations with creative industry personalities and experts about entrepreneurship, pop culture, art, music and film and fashion. Creative leaders break the mold by chartering their own destiny. They have the confidence in their ideas, and never give up on bringing them to fruition. It means leading without frontiers by seeing around the corners, and fearlessly navigating into the future with an insatiable curiosity and Lust for Life. Me arrays is a polymath who has mastered the art and science of divergent and convergent thinking epitomized and her nonlinear trajectory but has encompassed leading Microsoft's global go to market strategy for the defense and intelligence industry, directing the foreign policy and international trade on digital policies within the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation, multilateral trade and economic forum comprising 21 countries around the Pacific Rim led negotiations on behalf of US companies, and the Asia Pacific Business Advisory Council. She staffed White House appointed C suite business executives representing the US industry. She's traveled extensively around the Asia Pacific region, representing the United States and the US private sector, and worked closely with fortune 100 companies, international business leaders, and foreign governments on international policy issues. Mia has worked in the music industry, social services, and nonprofits. If that wasn't enough, deliver fulfilled life a world event forecaster, a former professional barbecue judge, a radio DJ, appeared in television commercials lived in an eco village in southern India, rode horseback across Mongolia, and walked across Spain. She holds a Master's in Public Administration, from the Evans School of Public Policy and Governance at the University of Washington. Hello, and welcome, Mia, how are you?

Mia Reyes:

Well, thank you, Roy, appreciate it. So great to talk to you.

Roy Sharples:

So what inspired and attracted you to the public policy space in the first place? Really,

Mia Reyes:

Before I went into the kind of international policy and trade world, I had a bit of a winding career, right. And so I feel like I kind of need to talk to you about like the beginning journey to show you how I got to the end part of that journey. But I, you know, I think as you sort of know, and have mentioned, you know, my career path, I initially was sort of working in music, and then I spent a long time over a decade working in nonprofits, and the the sort of common thread in all of those jobs was, okay, where can I have the most positive impact on not just impact, obviously, but like, Where can I have the most positive impact on the most amount of people in that specific moment in time, right. And it with all of those things together that look different in each part of my life, so that at one point, that was music at one point that was nonprofits, and then I kind of asked myself, okay, I've been doing all of this sort of work I've been, I've been walking and trying to bring this sort of thread through all of my jobs. But I felt like, I kind of felt like there were points where I was almost putting band aids on problems. And I wasn't really getting to the root causes. Right? So I was sort of recognizing, I'm absolutely helping, like, there's no I, you know, I looking at the data, right, I'm putting together reports, and here is literally how I am making an impact. But some of the work I was doing, I knew had such bigger roots to them. And I will mean, if I'm really thinking about Okay, even most most amount of impact I can have, where would that be? What could that be? And and that's kind of what led me to policy is, I was realizing that when you work in policy, you can have tremendous, tremendous impact, I mean, on a magnitude that I wasn't used to. And so I think when I sort of took that mantra of you know, most amount of positive impact on the most amount of people in this moment in time, I realized for me that was then the kind of work I wanted to do. That was public policy. And so I went, I got my master's in public administration with a focus on international policy. And then I, that's where I kind of found myself working in the policy world in the the Asia Pacific region.

Roy Sharples:

You're clearly someone who rejects conventions, constantly analyzing, and questioning and challenging the status quo in your everyday life. And looking for that alternative. People who achieved greatness do not fit a formula or follow a structure, they break the mold by following their own path. And that's clearly something that you've done, that you've had these inclinations and visions at a very young age. And then you've then envisioned what that outcome is, and then how you're going to get there by having an insatiable curiosity and determination to push the boundaries. And having a rush toward adventure and discovery.

Mia Reyes:

It's always been my personality, to kind of do these sorts of things, right. Like when I hear stories from my family, and my Grandma has now passed, but all of these all of these people who really raised me, they kind of always talk about me in a way that's like, oh, man, she's you know, fan, she's a little bit of a handball, when she you know, when you were younger, and you were, you know, when you got your mind set on something you would do it I, I feel like one of the first memories of that is, I just got obsessed with getting like free stickers and free stuff. And you used to be able to write to Candy companies. And I think I don't I honestly don't even know how I got there addresses, I think I would buy candy bars. And on the back, it would say, you know, in very, very small print, like, if you want to reach us, you know, be right to this to this address. And this was definitely before at least I was on the internet. And so you had to like buy a candy bar and write the address. And I wanted free stickers and just free stuff. And so I think I just randomly started writing m&ms and kit cat and Snickers and whatever the parent companies were and saying, hello, you know, I am BIA. I am seven years old, can I have some free candy or stickers? And I don't you know, I don't think my family had any idea what I was doing. I would just ask them for stamps. And they're like, let ever Here you go. You're preoccupied you're out of our hair. And then some of them would actually write me back and send me stuff. I remember getting stuff I remember getting like a package of stickers from from m&m and, and thinking, oh my god, it worked. Like it worked. And so I just kind of went crazy on that. I would just write, write, write, write and get more and more random. And sometimes it would be a letter. Sometimes it would be a coupon. Sometimes it would be kind of the pot of gold, which to me were like stickers. I don't think I ever got free candy. I don't think they would send candy to children in the mail. But, you know, that was one of the first instances and and then yeah, I think from there, so again, it was always my personality. And then I have considered Roy what they call a geriatric millennial. So I am on the older side of like, right on the cusp, kind of of being cut off of being a millennial. So for me, that meant I got internet, I had, you know, kind of modem dial up internet, AOL, when I was probably like 11, or 12. And when I was using kind of that version of the internet, I was able to kind of get my hands on more information. And so I was able to do more research. So instead of looking on the back of packages, or things like, you know, the internet just opened up a whole new world for me. And that was one of the things so you know, I got some ideas in my head, like, okay, I want to see I want to see the United States, I've never really traveled and this is when I was older, I was about 15/16. How do I do that? Like, just what are the ways that you can go and travel but, you know, my family didn't have a ton of money. They definitely didn't have money to fund that. Who can pay for like, who can pay me to go and see the United States and or even outside of the US. And I don't know how I stumbled on it. But I stumbled on summer camps. I had never gone to summer camp. None of my family had ever gone to summer camp. And I think I just found it randomly found some very, very probably basic website of some summer camp and I thought, Oh, that's a thing. You can do that. And then I that that was one way I started to kind of see the United States so I ended up getting paid to go I worked in upstate New York. I worked in probably the best summer camp that for you know, I think was 17 or 18 For me was Hawaii, I got to live in Hawaii and get paid to literally be right on the beach. That was fantastic. I then went to North Carolina and I worked at a NASCAR themed summer camp under Paul Newman's. He is a palma de les doctor. He had a series of camps for chronically ill children that I worked out for many years. So that I mean, so that was one way that really opened up. And then I guess, kind of the last example I give is, yes, I got in my head that I wanted to be cube 93, which is a local radio station in Seattle, it was like the radio station. I wanted to be the youngest DJ they ever had. And so I just got obsessed with that notion. I don't know, I honestly can't remember where it came from. But I would write constantly. So this was I think, pre internet still, or pre entered like me having access to the internet, I would write keep 93. And I would write the DJ, his name is Eric powers. And I said, I write all of these ideas. I think I was probably 12 or 13. At that time, you should hire me, I should come and join you. I should be the youngest DJ keep 93 has ever had, I really want to be a DJ and just over and over again. And I still remember Eric powers called my house. And I think my mom answered and, you know, again, I was 12 or 13. Eric powers has a radio voice, a very deep baritone voice, you could tell he is a grown man. And he was calling asking for me. And I still remember my mom's face where she's like, Who is this? Why are you calling for my like 12 or 13 year old daughter, like what? And she stood by as he was talking to me. And he said, Hey, Mia, look, I got your I've gotten your letters. I think it's amazing that you want to do this. You know, for a variety of reasons. We can't necessarily hire a 12 or 13 year old, I really think you should stay in school. But hey, like, come down to the station, I'll show you how a radio station works. You know, I'll get to meet you. We'll take some pictures I love like your passion. And I did, I went down, I got to meet Eric powers, who was the like, he was the guy, the DJ of that time. And he was a station manager as well. And he showed me how everything worked. I think I may have I honestly can't remember so long, the guy may have been able to say something on air. But I actually found that picture that I took there with him a couple of months ago. And it's just really funny. So I think that you know how I'll wrap up that story is, is I think it's kind of been always a part of me, Roy just like this going after it coupled with access to like really cool things like the internet, which is an amazing thing. So yeah, so and then, of course, I have many stories into my adulthood. But those are all kind of the early stories, I remember

Roy Sharples:

What is also apparent Mia, is your Do-It-Yourself sensibility, and how you approach your work, pulling up your sleeves and just doing it combined with a strong work ethic, being resourceful and analytical mind and your ability to visualize your path and then navigate your journey.

Mia Reyes:

I was raised in a immigrant household, my family came from the Philippines. I was born in the United States, but I was one of the first in my family born in the US even my sister and brother both came from the US. I was raised in a family of very strong and very educated and intelligent women. So you know, my family came over to pursue master's degrees. And you know, my aunt has a has a PhD, she's a doctorate. So, like, I think I just had kind of this core set of values of you know, my family came from the Philippines to the United States for a better life, I was raised in a very strong household of women who kind of never, who never thought that I we are I couldn't do anything. And so, you know, when you have that instilled in you in a very young age, I think you just kind of go for things. And so you know, all of that coupled with, I think probably just some some of my innate personality traits are what kind of has led me on the path and kind of where I've been and where I'm going. What is your creative process, in terms of how do you dream up ideas? How do you develop them into concepts, and then bring them to actualization? What's interesting is I kind of feel like I almost have an an analytical approach to creativity, which I feel like is an oxymoron. But But it's true, right? Whenever I'm pursuing something, whatever kind of project it is, or what you know, whether it's a personal project or a professional project. I kind of pursue it like I do, almost like a research project. Right, I do. Like I scan the landscape, I do kind of massive research, I want to understand everything, I get ideas from a variety of different places. And so I want to know who's done this? What have they done before? How did they do it? How are they successful? How were they not successful? Where can I find inspiration in completely random other areas? And are there connections I can make? And I pursue people who are, are kind of masters in their craft? And I'm like, Well, you know, whatever I'm trying to do who's done it? Somebody has done something similar, right? Like, how can I learn? How can I? How can I glean from them? And then honestly, like, sometimes it will, I'll even write everything down whatever project it is that I'm trying to think about, or whether it's, again, like a personal one or a professional one, like, what are my goals? What am I trying to get? What am I trying to get people to feel? What am I trying to feel? You know, what am I basically moving towards? And once I kind of jot that down, and then I write down, here's what I've researched, here's how I look at the landscape that I've looked at, then I kind of chunk everything down. And okay, how am I going to tackle this in, in almost a, like, strategic, like timeframe? And so I, how am I going to tackle this in a strategic timeframe, turning things into kind of bite sized, manageable tasks, and then I kind of go for it. And so it's almost like a project management way of approaching creativity, which again, can feel like an oxymoron. But that's how I work. That's how I operate I'm super analytical in a lot of ways. And it's always worked for me. And and, and I've, it's interesting, right? I don't, my husband, who I think is vastly and wildly creative. He, he I always say to him, I don't think I'm a creative person, like that's not and he's like, What are you talking about, like, you're totally creative, and we get in these back and forth. And so I think I've learned as I've gotten older, like my creativity, I think just looks different than other people's. It's almost like, again, an analytical creative process. So

Roy Sharples:

You clearly recognize that ideas only change things by doing the work. And that really comes across in your appreciation that it's not just about dreaming up innovative ideas, it's about execution and making them happen. And so by doing your research, due diligence, in the way that you do, where, in essence, you're standing on the shoulders of giants, by learning from history, and how to avoid reinventing the wheel, as you make progress, and your creative pursuits where you're authentically coming up with something original and new. Also, your approach is quite ambidextrous, in terms of you blend both divergent thinking, to analyze a problem, generate ideas, construct and critique, then blend that approach with convergent thinking, to review and select the best ideas to rapidly prototype and construct a plan, and then bring it to fruition in a disciplined and systematic way.

Mia Reyes:

It's an interesting process for me, right? Like, I feel, I feel like I do you have this passion for creativity and passion for storytelling. But I don't know if it's, it's as unique because like, we think in narratives, you know, yeah, we we are we are creatures that think in in stories and narratives. And for many, many, many, you know, generations, that is how that's how we pass down knowledge. And so like, I feel like I just kind of tap into this thing that all of us, you know, obviously, we all know that we all think in narratives. And it's just ask yourself, what would you rather sit through a presentation of a bunch of stories, think of fables, think of all of these classic ways that we've passed down lessons? Or would you rather sit through something that's, you know, 75 slides of numbers. Now, some people are incredibly analytical, and maybe the numbers work, but I would say the vast majority of people, you're going to remember something if you put it in some sort of narrative format. So I think it's just me acknowledging, like something that we all know, which is just it's more interesting to think in stories and narratives, and consumable, bite sized bits of information. And I think I just kind of, you know, maybe amplify that a little bit more in my world.

Roy Sharples:

Yes, stories are the oxygen for communication. And storytelling is a language that unites the world. It brings us together, it helps us understand our past and reach toward the future. And a well told story, engages the mind, heart and soul. And so like you say, storytelling makes meaningful connections across history and time. It unites people by helping them make sense of themselves and the world and insights that are spread by passing knowledge from one generation to the other and linking traditions, legends, myths, archetypes, culture, history and values, which unite communities and societies. Mia, what are the key skills needed to survive and thrive? As a modern public policy leader?

Mia Reyes:

It's interesting that you put modern public policy leader because there's, I think public policy in some ways, hopefully is changing. So I, you know, maybe we'll talk about that in a little bit. But I will say okay, to, and none of this is going to be, you know, like some wild revelation, I think anybody who even kind of even tangentially has been in this world, or works in this role that you probably don't even need to work in it to have these same observations. But, I mean, you got to have a thick skin, right? Like, seriously, you really have to have a thick skin to kind of work in that world. And I think it's because it can be a thankless job and, and the people who get in it mad, I give them major props and acknowledgement, because policy, it can be brutal, it can really be brutal, and now more than ever, it's it's, uh, you know, I think it's always been something that can be contentious, but at least in the United States, I feel like man, it is, it can be incredibly polarizing now more than ever, so have to have a thick skin. You know, and I think you have to have a real vision of what you're trying to achieve. And so even in kind of the world that I was working in, where I was doing more, I was kind of working in kind of global policy, international trade. It's so complex, and the timelines are so long, that you really had to have some grit to stick to like, What are you trying to? What are you trying to achieve? Because it's not fast. And it's not easy. And I think, you know, if you can understand that what you're working on now, the fruits of your labor, maybe 10 years from now, like it's it's a real kind of practice in grip working in policy. And so I think those are the sort of things that are, you know, did you have a platform? And can you are you going to be working on that for years and years and years to come and know that change in this world often is not fast? And are you going to be okay with that? I think those are really the things that you need to kind of survive. And I think to your point thrive, working in policy in any way.

Roy Sharples:

Society needs authentic leadership with a vision and know how to make things happen by pushing humanity forward and making society better. Our chosen political leaders need to constantly challenge the status quo, and stand against oppressive forces that diminish or oppose society, articulating their opinions and ideas without fear of retaliation. Leaders fearless and that expression should use their visions to fuel consistent action, to bring to life ideas that push humanity forward. We need to attract, select and retain leaders who are empathetic, who deeply understand and who are devoted to advancing people and society's needs. They should exercise their influence and power to make and enforce laws for society to function in the right way predictably and safely, and provide the best conditions for humanity by setting and managing the right conditions culturally, economically, politically, and technologically, by enabling society to achieve self actualization. You know, Mahatma Gandhi, and Martin Luther King Jr. led with a nonviolent approach influencing later resistance by global movements. Nelson Mandela rebelled against the apartheid regime, aiming to remove racism and eradicate poverty and inequality in South Africa. And he defied all odds to become President Abraham Lincoln enacted measures to oppose and abolish slavery in the USA and and Winston Churchill, inspired people had unique strategic insight and refuse to give in to the evil during extreme adversity, where he led the way to protect Great Britain and the Commonwealth freedom by rallying a nation and forming a strategic alliance with the USA and the Soviet Union in defiance of Hitler and the Nazi regime. These leaders stood for purpose, reason and conviction by seeing their policies through to the bitter end with resilience, grit, and the solitary intent of making humanity better. They did things that had never been done before. They rejected failure and swam against the tide. The proof novel solutions to complex problems that we didn't know exist, forming a new movement, culture, a new norms and ways of life. These leaders were flawed and made mistakes, though as they matured land and reflected, they were all ultimately driven by one common characteristic. They wanted a better world and a better outcome for humanity. So let's make politics more attractive for authentic leaders. Would you bought a plane? If the pilot did not know how to fly it? Would you allow your child to go to school? If the teacher could not teach? Would you trust a doctor incapable of treating medical conditions? No. So why elect people who are not skilled and experienced as politicians who end up at the helm in influential positions that ultimately affect people's well being and society or worse, privileged and entitled narcissists, whose misguided motives and prejudices are kryptonite to the free world, which has been the case in some countries throughout time. Authentic leaders are not compelled the politics in modern times, they tend to gravitate towards the Humanities, Arts, technology, entrepreneurship, and business. There may be monetary reasons for this, the fundamental issue is their lack of trust, and exhaustion of the old economy. And it's the kid political systems, coupled with the ethics and the incompetence of people leading countries who do not have the empathy, skills, and experience to lead. It's time to reinvent politics and the types of leaders that need to be at the helm of society.

Mia Reyes:

You summarized a lot of the reasons why I think there can be difficulty and finding, you know, whether you want to call them qualified leaders or leaders who we view as qualified. But here's like, here's honestly, where I, I think so much of the root of this is, and it's not new, and this is not new, and it's people. And actually, it goes back to the things that we started this conversation in, is, at the end of the day, there are just some people who were really charismatic, and are just really good at mobilizing people's emotions. It's like, I don't even know if it's that complicated. And yes, there's a lot of political strategists and social scientists who can go into so much more about how certain how we got into, you know, situations we are in now. But it's not new. I mean, in history, there have been leaders who have been unqualified to lead. And we have seen those who see the ramifications of those in devastating scales, right. So it's not it's not a new thing. So I guess the question really is, how do people? How do you get yourself into a position where you can be elected in certain positions that are incredibly powerful? Without maybe the the usual level of background and expertise? And in my opinion, I don't think it's that complicated of an answer. I think these people are really good. They have really good at telling stories that resonate at firing people's emotions up at having sticky messaging, and maybe my messaging isn't even real. That messaging can can be straight up lies, but it's catchy, right? They're kind of master marketers at the end of the day, really. And and that's what's so much of politics and especially elections are, what is the most riveting narrative that is gonna stick? Doesn't matter if it's coming from somebody who knows what they're talking about doesn't matter. It's just like, what is the what's like, literally the marketing around this person? How much charisma do they have? Can they stand in front of 20,000 people? And can you can you feel moved? And not even necessarily moved in a positive way? Because I think yes, there's, there's people who can who can pull on hope, which are, you know, obviously, I think most of us are, you know, we want that, but there's people who can absolutely pull on fear, and anger and hate. And so it's an emotional play right here, put there there people who can just mobilize your emotions better. I think that is so much of what it of what it is, they're just really good at, like having these stories and, and so when I think of kind of the future of that, it's like, Can we really, like we need to get so we being so I'm going to say me as Mia who has like political ideology that goes in a certain way, right? I think of a leader like President Obama, who's just um, who was so charismatic and such a good like, he could just pull on your emotions and like, I didn't find more of those. I don't think it's easy. Yeah, because he he also had, you know, a vision and qualifications. And then some will say, though, but he wasn't even in politics for like a really long time, you know, but, um, like it's finding these leaders who have charisma, and who are good storytellers. And who can mobilize, I think younger voters. And so like, what do younger voters care about? What platforms are they on? And like, again, none of this is new political strategists know that, like, all of this is being talked about. But it's just think about, like, think of you as a person who like what do you Who do you want to sit in front of and listen to you want to? It's somebody who's going to pull on your emotions? And I think how do you find those people? and really understand that these people like you finding people with these kind of storytelling and ways to marry and ways to kind of compel? I think that's, that's going to be the interesting. Yeah. process and project for us and politics, and continues to be none of this is new

Roy Sharples:

Upon reflection, what are your key learnings in terms of the pitfalls to avoid, and the keys to success that you can share with aspiring public policy leaders?

Mia Reyes:

I think it's a lot of, you know, what we talked about, like, what do you need to survive and thrive? Right? It's thick skin, it's it can be a very thankless job. Are you okay with that? A real vision of what you're trying to achieve? You have the grids, you have the long timeline in your mind. I also think, you know, at least in my world, where I was working in international policy and trade, it's so much so much a policy, so much of it is negotiation and artful compromise. Like, do you have those skills? Right, can you and and again, it's, it's not easy, I will say, especially now in politics, especially politics in the United States, negotiation is probably an artful compromise. I think there's probably leaders who would even argue that even if you're really skilled at that, it still can be hard, if not nearly impossible, and just kind of the polarized politics we have now. But it is so much of it is is negotiation. What are you willing to give up to gain? Or is incremental progress for you going to work? I think those are the sort of things that you have to really think about. You have to hone you have to really get okay with. And I think at least for me to be the kind of leader in policy that I would want to be, those are the things that I would think about do peep, does everybody use them using policy? No, absolutely not. Some people like my way of the highway, I don't care. It's this. And there's that mode, too. But at least like in the kinds of, I think negotiation based policy or compromise, or the kind of policy role that I had been in that's those are the sort of skills that I think back on that I think people can really hone.

Roy Sharples:

What's your vision for the future of public policy, and where do you see the role of creativity play?

Mia Reyes:

When I think of the private sector, we we've done so much research, and I think we can all say now we know that the data is in diverse teams are more productive for long term results, like we know that right? I think a lot of us have the same vision for government, a lot of a lot of government, in so many ways, can feel, you know, I think we can there's not a ton of maybe creativity in certain pieces, or people think there isn't like I have examples actually where there's amazing, amazing aspects of creative governments. But I think the big thing is like when we build diverse teams, we have better long term results. And how do we do that? in government? How do you have government leaders who are similarly diverse, and we're building out? You know, diversity and inclusion campaigns in private sector? Like, how are you kind of doing that in government? And I think that is a huge thing is can we pull leaders into government from wildly different kinds of backgrounds and perspectives who were really representative of, like, at least in the United States, the populations of the United States, right, like we are, we're becoming more and more diverse. How do you represent that? I think that diversity in public policy is huge. I think your question of creativity. I think that's another you know, sometimes people say a creative government, that's an oxymoron. And, you know, there are some governments that have been doing some incredibly interesting and creative things and you look at especially using technology and and you look at a country like Estonia, who gets used as an example so much. But, you know, they are using blockchain in really interesting ways. They have I think 99% of their government services online, which is amazing. Again, so, and they're spoiled. So they can do that you can pilot when you have a population of I think it's over a little over a million people. But it's not like it's not being done, right. Yeah, I think of an example I heard where either Italy or another country in Europe was piloting or thinking about, how do you use postal workers to maybe to kind of help fill in some gaps of social service workers that they were trying to undo. They're trying to have more touching checkpoints, like for example, with with elderly residents, and they knew that Wait, well, postal workers are actually going and they are going to people's homes every day, like what if they could you have some hybrid where they're actually doing check ins with some of the elderly residents? Because if they're going there every day, would that be? You know, would that be some kind of program? You could pilot? Yeah, I heard of one in I think it was New York who was piloting, providing ESL or English as a second language classes through cell phones and having like whole ESL classes for newly immigrated New Yorkers coming in, and they knew everybody had a cell phone. So it's like, what kind of can you have like almost text on your phone based classes to teach ESL like it's happening? And I think the more that we embrace these really interesting, innovative pilot programs and invest in them and can we put money where our mouth is and try and like pilot these really interesting ways we can be creative in government. I think that would just open up incredible new doors for us.

Roy Sharples:

Thank you, Mia. Fascinating insights! Always question explanations like, because this is the way it has always been done, and ask, what is this the best way it can be done? Start with youth to build the Society of the future by taking a long term approach. But how soon is the future? One thing for sure, is the future is unwritten and everything is possible. You have been listening to the Unknown Origins podcast, please follow, subscribe, rate and review us. For more information go to unknownorigins.com Thank you for listening.