Jeremy Till on Climate and Creative Practice

Jeremy Till is an architect, educator, and writer. As an architect, he worked with Sarah Wigglesworth Architects on their pioneering building, 9 Stock Orchard Street. As an educator, Till is Head of Central Saint Martins and Pro-Vice-Chancellor at the University of Arts London. As a writer, Till's extensive work includes Flexible Housing, Architecture Depends, and Spatial Agency, all three of which won the RIBA President's Award for Research. He curated the UK Pavilion at the 2006 Venice Architecture Biennale and the 2013 Shenzhen Biennale of Architecture and Urbanism. Jeremy provides his perspective on climate and creative practice. 

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Transcript

Roy Sharples: 0:06

Hello, I'm Roy Sharples, welcome to the unknown origins podcast. Why are you listening to this podcast? Are you seeking inspiration? an industry expert, looking for insights, or growing your career? I created the unknown origins podcast to provide access to insights and content from creators worldwide with inspirational conversations and storytelling, about art, architecture, design, entrepreneurship, fashion, film, music and pop culture. Jeremy tell is an architect, educator, and writer. As an architect, he worked with Sierra Wigglesworth architects on the pioneering building named stock Orchard Street as an educator, till his head of Central Saint Martin's, and Pro Vice Chancellor at the University of Arts, London, as a writer, tells extensive work includes the books, flexible housing, architecture depends, and sparks your agency, all three of which won the Ri ba President's Award for research, he curated the UK pavilion at the 2006 Venice Architecture Biennale, Ali, I'd also add the 2013 Shinzon be an alley of architecture and urbanism. Hello, and welcome, Jeremy, what attracted you to climate and creative practice in the first place?

Jeremy Till: 1:40

Well, first of all, although I recognize your podcast is about creativity, maybe I should just explain and share my reservations about the word, I worry about the word because it suggests that creativity is some kind of mystical art that is, belongs to the individual, that it's like a muse flies through a muse flies through the window, and imbues the the genius individual with a sense of creativity, and then they go out into the world with that. And I worry about all of those aspects about it being attached to the individual, because I think that we should be talking about CO creativity, that individual, some individuals have it and others don't, which I don't believe in, I just think that creativity can be expressed in many different ways. And that in some way, one can potentially teach creativity, I think is also of all, like a book about creativity. And if you read a book about creativity, it's going to make you a better person. I am, I'm suspicious, and maybe you can cross examine me on, on my suspicions on on all of those fronts. And you may feel that's a strange thing for the head of a internationally renowned center of creative education to say, but I would say to my students, I say to my staff, so And I'd probably explain it in some length as to why I worry about work creativity alone, I prefer the word creative practice, because that suggests that there are practices which one can employ in, in going out into the world, which are creative, but that is rather different from going out into the world with a sense of and undefinable creativity. So that's where creativity comes in. The relationship to climate is started, I suppose at a very personal level of a trip that so my partner, so was worse than I did. Back in God 19 in 1990, when we were on a Fulbright Fellowship, and we were in the States, and we were in a camper van, criss crossing states subsea fantastic. And I remember vividly we were in a campsite in outside Las Vegas, where it was, you know, 110 degrees and zero humidity. And so we thought we do our washing and we're hanging our washing out on the line. And you know, that seems quite sensible. And the campsite owner came out came over and said, No, no, no, we've got to take that down because it doesn't look good to have washing in a campsite wasn't pushed campsite, but nonetheless, you have to take it in there. So we went into an air conditioned room and had to put our clothes into a tumble dryer and it was that kind of sense of environmental madness, which then set us Join me down our paths of, first of all, looking at how one might build a sustainable house. Although I'm worried about the word sustainable as well, which I could explain to you, I want to ask me about that. And then as sort of most of my work in one way or another has been to do with issues of most recently issues of climate, and in particular how climate and creative practice can and should intersect,

Roy Sharples: 5:29

Before delving further into climate and creative practice, let's not forget your distinguished background as an architect!

Jeremy Till: 5:36

I was educated as an architect and I practice architecture for a bit, continue to catch us with Sarah Wigglesworth and Bill, which is, you know, a well known house. It was on the front cover of the architects journal about 18 years after it was built with a, with a headline said is, is this the most influential house of its January? So I suppose, whatever the answer to that question was suggested worth asking. And, in many ways the house was defined through its through its approach to sustainability and climate. But when, when we were doing the house, I was also getting involved in academia, first of all UCL at the Bartlett, and then as head of college, Head of School of Architecture at University of Sheffield, where I think that what we do collectively was sort of quite important on the social political map of architecture, education. And then I was at University of Westminster as dean of architecture and building environments of it. And 10 years ago, I came to be heard of St. Martin's, which was a, over the time, a kind of difficult appointment for, for me and the college because Simpson Martins is probably best known for being world's closest fashion course, and having an architect who were books coming in his head was, was seen as potentially problematic, but I'm still here and they haven't killed me,

Roy Sharples: 7:10

The house that you are referring to, is, of course, the revered straw bale house that you and Sarah designed in North London, which set the pace for a new blueprint eco home. And that was done over 20 years ago, which transcended the ordinary and routine, by reimagining architecture and how people live. Was your appointment at Central Saint Martins intentional, in that they seek the leader who was an outsider from a seemingly disparate field, to bring a novel approach, perhaps in a positively disruptive way to advance the college to the next phase of its evolution?

Jeremy Till: 7:49

I wouldn't say that disruptive change is something that one could inflict on my colleagues at St. Martin's because they're inflicting disruptive change in a productive way on the world. But interesting and probably net less good, accommodating themselves. And I certainly would not want to in any way, and I don't think I have thrown the baby out with the bathwater. But I think that one of the discussions and the changes if there has been a change, or I wouldn't say change more kind of opening up of the college has been to do with a discussion about the role of creative practice in relation to the external world. Yeah. And so discussion is around. Right at the beginning, I did a risky project called what is the point of art school? So the question is, what is the point of art school? And I, of course, I thought I knew the answer. And personally and collectively, that however many years, we have answered that question by saying the point of the art school is, is to open up to the outside world. And art schools, which I hate the term anyway, because it refers back to kind of previous generation of the 60s were, or have the, I think, in some, many cases still are very internalized places that they talk about themselves, they have certain set of languages, certain set of behaviors, certain set of rituals, which are played out within a very, or semi autonomous and certainly internalized way. And my own work in architecture, but also the discussions we've been having here is actually that form of autonomy is completely unacceptable, that the purpose of what we do in terms of our students and staff and in terms of creative practice is exactly to engage with the outside world in a constructive and productive way. And the argument that now we're making Climate is that creative practice is an absolutely essential part of the discourse of climate. And the reason that we're making that argument goes back to whether it's Einstein, Audrey Lorde, whoever, basically says, you cannot solve a problem with the same tools that created the problem. And the climate emergency is not a problem, it's much, much more serious and a problem, you can't solve the climate emergency, it's a much more difficult in sectional set of situations which you can engage with, but you certainly can't solve. And indeed, solving a problem is exactly the kind of discourse of the modern project, which has created the climate emergencies. This is the modern project of growth, the progress of late capitalism, and so on, and so forth. All of these things have endless consumption of endless extraction, exactly the things that have created the climate emergency. And so the argument is, which we're making here at University of Arts next week, quite publicly, in a thing called the carnival, the process is that one need other ways of thinking, to engage with the climate emergency, which is not to throw away science, of course, we need, we need to know about, you know, in my field, building physics, we need to know about technologies. But technologies alone on on a kind of slightly rebooted version capitalism alone. Well, a slightly rebooted version, capitalism is not as simple as going to perpetuate the problem, because that's going to be based on systems of consumption and extraction, that one needs to put alongside the, the, the technological, scientific, and so called Rational modes of thinking, you need to put creative modes of thinking alongside them, in particular, to attempt to think of new futures, and to think about new imaginaries. Because the climate emergency demand systemic change, it doesn't, we won't get there through tinkering with the status quo. We've got to think, to new futures, new sets of social relationships, new economic relationships, new spatial relationships, in order to address the world, which that that is necessary to live within the State of the Climate emergency, which will be perpetual, it's not going to go away, it's going to get worse. And therefore we need to understand how we might live together within this ravaged planet. And that means that we need to bring to the table is new ways of thinking. And that's where I think creative practice comes in.

Roy Sharples: 13:04

Living sustainably in that life is dependent on healthy living and the environment for the likes of food, air, water, and clean ecosystems that purify the air, maintain the soil, regulate climate, recycle nutrients, and provide food, providing the best conditions for humanity by setting and managing the conditions culturally, economically, politically, and technologically, by enabling society to help solve to help better solve these problems and address these issues. And so by setting the right conditions inspires creativity and innovation, because it affects how people view and interpret the world around them. And their capacity to become and live more fulfilled and happy lives and embracing originality and making unique connections between disparate universes to light the way into the future. Jeremy, what is typically your approach to creativity, or your creative process in terms of how do you make the invisible visible by dreaming up new ideas, developing those ideas into concepts, and then bring in those concepts that actualization?

Jeremy Till: 14:24

Well, you won't be surprised to hear that I'm not going to talk about that. No, no, seriously, because if you talk about Jeremy Till's creative process, it gets back to the kind of Victorian idea of this genius sitting in a room with light coming in and and and, and intuitive gestures coming out. So I I resist the notion of describing creative process. I can describe the context in which creative factors might operate. I can describe that I think that Any creative process has to be driven by values, I can describe that a creative processes is about intervening in the world, I can describe that creative proach process is to do a transformation of that vision of the world. But I don't want to. So what I do is I sit down, and I sketch, I just think that's rubbish. I mean, it's fine. And people do sketch and that's their way with engaging with these scenes. But I don't think it's, and by the way, I can't sketch I can't fall for toffee, I am not particularly creative in the in the, in the, in the sort of perceived sense of the term I that I have creativity running through my blood. And I'm not even I don't think a particularly good designer in the classic sense of the term. And yet, I might be quite good at being able to understand the relationship between knotty problems, and then thinking about how one might get through those three problems.

Roy Sharples: 16:07

How I internalize creative practice is feeling empowered, free and safe, to express yourself and to create without fear, and approaching problem solving openly and innovatively. By trying out new ideas and ways of thinking and doing and recognizing that what might have happened in the past and been solutions to problems, then it's highly unlikely it's applicable to the present time and defining new opportunities that guide us into the future. Because we are all part of time, which goes in one direction only. And that's forward. My perspective on the creative process is that it's about making new connections between past and present ideas and infusing economic, political, socio cultural and technological perspectives in parallel to produce new business models, products, services, or experiences that drive positive societal change and a positive impact on on people's lives. And the steps and the process involve discovering and developing insights, applying divergent thinking to analyze a problem generating and evaluating ideas that can become concepts, experimenting, prototyping, constructing, then making a plan of action, and then bringing that plan of action to life. The process itself is constant and iterative. And it is very much based on a co creative, collaborative approach that involves multiple expertise across multiple domains and disciplines. And so bringing that to creative practice means in the context of highly performing creative teams, they tend to be self organizing, and the performance from the experts across multiple domains. Joint have joint actions within the the engagement the project, they have a shared vision and commitment to the purpose and mission at hand. And similarly, the most innovative teams mobilize themselves in response to unexpected changes throughout that creative process or creative practice to to use your terminology. And you don't necessarily need a leader to tell them what to do. People who have the expertise and passion will step up at the right time to lead and drive the completion of their respective input and add value to the team and solution. And the creative atmosphere that's cultivated, provides autonomy and space. And it's liberal, inclusive and meritocratic. Yet it's entirely focused and motivated to expedite the mission. It starts with a big idea and a shared vision. And then the team works through the details to come up with a big picture and then bring that to life. You cannot simply throw money at creative pursuits and expect instant results. It is a social system, made up of a network of relationships, connected by a distinguishable similarity of spirit and shared values, which gravitates towards a coherent whole between individuals, groups, communities, cities, nations, corporations, and industries. Could you provide some examples of where you've applied your creative practices?

Jeremy Till: 19:32

I don't want to give examples actually, because examples such a two, a two partial, I mean, I can give examples I can, I can talk about the MA bio design that we set up here as the first bio design course in the world. And the way that students are working with biological systems as a means to look at the production of new forms of textiles. So I could talk about our new course run by Professor cow Collie and regenerative design or Talk about the project I'm working on, which is about, you know, how do we find new space realities, and then new ways in which architects may operate. But each of those are just fascinating and sometimes brilliant in their own manner. But very partial in terms of actually how, how the whole thing stacks up. So I think it's more important to talk about, about ways of thinking and about what designers as a community can bring to the table. And, you know, that I always use in this context, there's a, there's a, an amazing book by the Indian novelist and writer Amitabh gauche, who talks about how the climate emergency is a crisis of culture, and therefore crisis of imagination. And so what he's pointing to, in that context is the way that his fellow novelist basically abandoned the problem. They've been obsessed with the idea of the modernist novel of subjectivity of looking at themselves and writing about himself, selves. And so, you know, someone like the Norwegian novelist, NASCAR who has spent six pages describing opening a nasty package. And he's saying we, that is a failure, that's a failure of collective failure on our behalf of not using the novel as a form of the imaginary in order to open up new possibilities. And I suppose what I'd say in in terms of designers, is that kind of the use of the imaginary not not in a utopian manner, not in a completely effective manner, but always working with the present, and, and kind of opening up the present to find new futures. And if very bluntly, and I use my definition of design is incredibly blunt and simple. So it's not a problem, the 60s definition of designers, design is a problem solving activity. I completely disagree with that, because what I said before, which is problem solving is is a is a is a terminology of the modern project, either through reason, through the execution of designers as a rational and linear, and whatever process that we'd want unsolved problems better. Instead, my definition is really simple, which is what a designer does, is to take a small chunk of the world and transform it into something better. And which is kind of So, so banal, in a way but if I look, I'm sitting looking out over Simpson, Martin's incredible view of 4000 students who each, in a own way, working on a brief is to take a small chunk of the world and make that bit of the world they're working on a bit better. Now, although that sounds banal, sometimes one needs to be really direct and in the way that one approaches things, that the question then is, is just set that making better within the context of the climate emergency. And one can only do that, if one intervenes in the structures that have produced the climate emergency, one has to understand as Naomi Klein so brilliantly explains the the evolution of the climate emergency in relation to capitalism, one has to understand the climate emergency in relation to issues of growth issues of extraction. And as soon as you understand it in relation to the its its formations, then the designer has a context to work in to intervene in, in order to disrupt those constructions in order to make their small bit of the world better. And that's where creative practice, I think, is absolutely essential, because the science might say they're trying to solve a problem, but they don't do it in a relational manner. They don't do it in an iterative manner. Often, it's done as a kind of linear manner of I see one problem here, and I'm going to get to a solution. Now, in some cases, that's absolutely necessary. I want to know the solution to the vaccine of COVID. I don't want I don't want a designer to come in and sort of say, oh, might be the sort of might be that I actually want so go we're in Oxford go ahead and and solve that problem. But that's a that's a limited example important, but limited example. Because in relation to the climate emergency, all of these conditions which we face in relation to climate are related, but super complex. So you can only intervene in in partial manner, but in a manner which understands the relation or construction of the climate emergency. And that's what designers are really good at. Designers at their best are very good at understanding the relational aspects of the context. Just To reiterate the problem with the the individual creative process, or even speaking to posh people like me to try to explain the individual creative process. The problem with that is that, that is the model on which too much, particularly in architecture, I have to say, but in some cases and other design schools, that is the sort of Bozar model of, of, of design education, particularly architecture education, in which the model basically is, I am here, I am your master, if you follow me, you can be quite like me, not fully like me, because I'm a real genius, and you probably aren't, but I can, at least if you follow me closely enough, you can become the shadow of me. And that is the classic Bozar model of the Atelier system of the great hero figure, who happens to be an architect or a famous designer, and they become the shining light, and they shine a bit of light on their students, and hope that it sticks. That's absolute rubbish. I mean, it's a terrible system is terrible, because of systems of power is terrible, because they're generally male, therefore, it's systems of patriarchy. But it's mainly terrible, because the students are going to have to go out and confront the world, by themselves or with others, ie that there is no use turning them into shadow figures of the hero, because that is not going to last when they hit the real world. And so what designing occasion has to be and I'm sure that we are doing it here is not a kind of Atelier system of master servant or master student, but something about empowering the individual student, so that they have the values first of all values, and then the skills to address the world on their own terms. So that's why I'm I can't stand those books, which sort of talk about the creative process to the great designers. Effectively, that's what most monographs are, you know, here is a picture of Justin was And here's his latest chair, if you look at the latest chair closely enough, YouTube could become the next chair of Jasper Morrison. It says nothing about actually what Jasmin Watson has done in relation to that chair, it's just presented as, as the output of his genius. So that's why I'm concerned or suspicious of the kind of the model of of design, education, stroke journalism, stroke publications, which which go back time and time again, to the great heroic gestures in terms of how my own creative practice, were not my aggrieved, perhaps how creative practice might work in relation to these global challenges, and particularly data climate, it is to get away from the notion of the problem and solving the problem, I follow a use of the term by a plant actually a planning theorists called John Foster, which has to get away from the notion problem and just talk about making sense, I trying to make sense of the world. And the reason to repeat what I said before that I think that designers are in a very strong position to make sense of the world is that good design operates by understanding the kind of intersectional nature the context, so that the intersection of societal economic, sometimes aesthetic, sometimes political, sometimes environmental, all of these intersectional issues come together within a particular context. So the context may be quite physical, you know, it may be an urban situation in which you have to understand and local politics, the stakeholder, the state of the individual, the the wider economic structures, which affect that the context and so on and so forth. And what designs are very good at is, is then sort of making connections between those constitutions. And that's where I think that creativity in creative practice is a really important contribution to the discourse around these wicked problems of toxic issues of, of, of climate. And I don't think that scientists alone have that understanding and therefore needs to bring to the table these other voices, but one also needs to understand that the one also needs to shift away from the notion that creativity is held within the individual, in order that the the addressing of these top Toxic problems of climate can and I use the word problems knowingly in relation to toxic mix, they are toxic in relation to to global heating in terms of flooding in terms of mass migration, etc etc. But you can bring to the table a sensibility of co-design and co-creativity, which understands all the relational issues which which climate throws up.

Roy Sharples: 30:26

Yes! That sensibil ty means taking a macro view by nderstanding and infusing economic, political, socio cu tural and technological perspect ves, to truly solve complex roblems, society's pressing needs, and that it takes a iverse team of experts and know edge to truly make that real thr ugh a co creative and collabor tive approach.

Jeremy Till: 30:55

Yeah, I mean, co-creativity and co-design necessarily has to include a wide range of voices, but importantly, also a wide range of knowledges. And one of the things that the Western modern project has done is to suppress other forms of knowledge in in the name of reason, so, right back to you know, the Enlightenment philosophers. And then the, the privileging of reason over any other form of knowledge, any other form of orderly or subjective or whatever knowledge has been, is still with us, you know, still with us, right up to today in the budget announcement in Parliament, which is, which is preceded by not my god, poverty is a terrible thing, in relation to human existence, oh, no, everything is quantified. Everything's potential graphs, everything is graphs need to go up with because we're both involved in Project and so on and so forth. So, yes, co create creation and Co Co design has to include other knowledges. And, you know, everybody has experienced the world. Everyone in their own way has an expertise of the world, but because that expertise is not codified, and therefore, professionalized, those forms of non codified non professional acknowledges, are often excluded from the table of the modern project. And the book were reading as part of the architecture after architecture project, this research project about climate and really important book is by Susan Santos, record, the end of the cognitive empire, where he is contrasting the, the knowledge of the global north and particularly the modern enlightenment modern project, with the suppressed forms of knowledge of the Global South, of indigenous knowledge of, of narrative knowledge, of knowledge of the storyteller of knowledge of the vernacular, and all of these things will become more and more important in, in talking about, about climate. So the indigenous knowledge of, let's say, for indigenous community in North America, who understand and always understood, that actually, our it only can be seen in relation to the non human as well. Either humans have to understand planets as a interrelate of human and non human systems, they've understood that that's, that's the whole of the culture, the whole of the, of the being is wrapped up, or whether it is the indigenous communities in in, in Australia in relation to the song lines, you know, the song lines are all to do with me and our collective in relation to the earth in relation to the nonhuman in relation to nature in relation to other animals. And so those kinds of ways of thinking need to be brought to the table. And then what the designer does is to is to kind of understand how a bit of scientific knowledge can be joined together with a bit of indigenous knowledge in order to address and make sense of the climate emergency

Roy Sharples: 34:12

Spot on Jeremy! Take the Native American spirituality principles around living in harmony with the Earth, honoring each other and respecting the interdependence of all life. It's remarkable that you sustained optimism throughout time that continues to inspire and provide leading edge thinking, learning and doing?

Jeremy Till: 34:37

In my position as head of this extraordinary place. I I am allowed to be critical. I'm allowed to be provocative, but I'm not allowed to be a pessimist. Yeah, so it's, I have to believe that what we're doing here collectively is a project of optimism, no, optimism needs always to be not tempered, but it needs to be situated. I unfettered optimism will will just burn out very quickly. So the optimism always has to be grounded, which is why I'm I'm suspicious of notions of just kind of unfettered utopia or of pure speculation. And I know that that is seen as I'm often criticized for being conservative by saying, Oh, we're just allowing the students to speculate. Whereas I think that unfettered speculation is deeply conservative. That I think because it doesn't actually affect change, it's indulgent. So I think that any form of of creative practice has necessarily and you know, here my sitting is have seen some mountains. I have to maintain on on my students behalf and optimism, optimism, even if I am personally compromised about my generations, ability to have screwed up the world to the extent it has a my pessimism about my generations ability to even engage with with the crisis, I have to have my students maintain an optimism but at the same time that optimism has to have a grounding, it has to be contextualized. And it has to have mainly it has have a criticality advantage

Roy Sharples: 36:32

By reinventing old ways of doing things with original, and often groundbreaking perspectives, one that rejects convention and challenges the status quo. By continually analyzing and questioning the everyday life. One can lead creatively unprovoked actions that bring about change. Some of the situationist manifesto theories and philosophies come through within some of your creative practice.

Jeremy Till: 37:00

Yeah, I agree!

Roy Sharples: 37:01

So bringing this all together, Jeremy, what is creative practice not?

Jeremy Till: 37:06

Creative practice is not about production of innovative form. Graded practice is not about the production of individual subjectivities, although those that may come into it, I think it is really important for my students here to be allowed to talk about their identities and be allowed to talk about the anxieties within the world. But then that is situated within a wider context. So if someone is dealing with their identity as a, as a non binary person, that's an absolutely valid vehicle for their creative practice, to to, to engage with, as long as it is set within the wider discourse around, about around gender rights, and so on, so forth, I would say. So I think that creative practice is also not to do with a kind of heroic problem solving, as, as it has been described before, nor is creative practice to do with itself, which I'm afraid too often it has been creative practices is sort of an examination of its own discipline, or whatever. So and creative factors should never be taken away from an ethical foundation, which, which, again, it too often has either there's an argument, particularly architecture, but I see this in other fields too. In some way, we can remove ourselves from the social and political life world because we are so wrapped up in the production of beauty or we're so wrapped up in the production of innovative form. But that's clearly rubbish any any form of creative practices, never to be political, not political, left wing, right wing, political because it affects people's lives in one way or another. And therefore, better practice is, is in a double negative is not a political and has therefore to face up to its social, political and mainly ethical responsibility.

Roy Sharples: 39:20

Jeremy in the spirit, that our outputs are the next generations inputs, which obviously comes with accountability and responsibility to pass the baton to the next generation, leaving the world in better shape. What would that baton be, and stand for in terms of defining the legacy you want to leave behind?

Jeremy Till: 39:44

Oh, god, that's a difficult question because i i It's not for me. It's, it's not for me to find what a personal collective legacy maybe it's Father's? Yes. I can't Otherwise, it just becomes a project of vanity. And that's, that's really dangerous. But I suppose it is to do. The My definition of ethics that I use is that as Sigmund Bauman and comes from someone else, which is to be ethical is to be responsible for the other. And therefore it is that responsibility for the other, which I think is the main thing that I'd like to pass on. And then the other is both human and non human. The other is multiple, the other is collective. The other is people who use things, people who shouldn't consume things, it is completely multiple. But it's how therefore a designer, in any sense, whenever they're engaging with a project is always engaging with it in the end, in relation to their responsibilities to the other. And that means opening up that means a generosity that means an empathy that means an understanding of, of diversity of intersectional issues, and just being both gender generous and curious about what the other might mean and how one might be responsible for them.

Roy Sharples: 41:19

How soon is the future? One thing for sure is, the future is unwritten and everything is possible. Do you want to learn more about how to create Without Frontiers by unleashing your creative power? Then consider getting Creavtivity Without Frontiers How to make the invisible visible by lighting the way int the future. It's available i print, digital and audio on al relevant book platforms. You have been listening to the Unknown Origins podcast. Please follow subscribe, rate and review us. For more information go to unknownorigins.com Thank you for Listening!