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Unknown Origins
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Unknown Origins
Steve Lillywhite on Creativity in Music-Making
Steve Lillywhite is a multi-award-winning music-making pioneer, and Commander of the Order of the British Empire, whose iconic work spans over four decades, producing over 500 records including The Scream by Siouxsie and the Banshees, The Crossing by Big Country, Peter Gabriel by Peter Gabriel, Sparkle in the Rain by Simple Minds, The Joshua Tree by U2, Naked by Talking Heads, Vauxhall and I by Morrissey. He has been Managing Director of Mercury Records and Senior Vice President of A&R at Columbia Records.
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Hello, I'm Roy Sharples, welcome to the unknown origins podcast. Why are you listening to this podcast? Are you seeking inspiration? an industry expert, looking for insights, or growing your career? I created the unknown origins podcast to provide access to insights and content from creators worldwide with inspirational conversations and storytelling, about art, architecture, design, entrepreneurship, fashion, film, music, and pop culture. Music is the language of the world with no boundaries. It unites and brings people together, regardless of time and space, and it can change the world affect a mood, atmosphere and behavior and captures a moment in time. Steve Lillywhite epitomizes this magic and wonder. Steve is a multi award winning music making pioneer and Commander of the Order of the British Empire, whose iconic work spans over four decades, producing over 500 records, including the Scream by Siouxsie and the Banshees, The Crossing by Big Country, Peter Gabriel by Peter Gabriel, Sparkle in the Rain by Simple Minds, The Joshua Tree by U2, Naked by Talking Heads, and Vauxhall and I by Morrissey. He has been Managing Director of Mercury Records and Senior Vice President of A&R at Columbia Records. Hello, and welcome, Steve!
Steve Lillywhite:Hi, there, Roy. My name is Steve Lillywhite. I used to be a record producer. I used to say that people, now they say what are records? So I presume I'm, I'm a music producer, but I've been I've been doing it for so bloody long that is that the thing about being a music producer is not like being a doctor, after about 40 years, or any creativity. After 40 years of being a doctor, you're supposedly a better doctor, after 40 years of doing music, I'm not sure if you're ever if you're any better than you were on day one. And that's borne out by the amount of artists whose first album is their best. But I digress. Off you go.
Roy Sharples:That's a fine way of putting it but I would argue with you there are Steve that very few have had the impact on pop culture and, and millions of people's lives that you have. And I think being being being a child of the 80s like myself, growing up being an ardent music collector and going into those those record stores back in the 80s. Where, you know, it was like almost like a religious pilgrimage. Can I go in that on the Saturday mornings and filter on your way through the different categories of music, cross examining the record sleeves. And, you know, music then was it. People were fairly on the music tastes.Your name was omnipresent with so many of those pioneering influential records.
Steve Lillywhite:It was a very fertile era. Yeah. You know, I mean, there was a lot, that there was a lot of very diverse acts, who were all now in retrospect, you know, back in that time when you're young and opinionated. Yeah, you know, you definitely had your favorites and everything but, but even if I, you know, I've never really been a fan of simply read. But you know, you now look back and you go, what's even simply read, we're pretty good.
Roy Sharples:I mean, the variance and style and it wasn't just like it was year after a year, there was something new happening, and music at that time, okay, we had the Top of the Pops in the UK and the whistle test and the enemy that really channeled and the latest and greatest at that moment in time with a huge captive kind of audience and that mechanisms. It has evaporated now through all the other means, but it wasn't just that it was music then really helped define fashion and movements and pop culture. Were you aware at that time the impact that you were having upon people's lives and pop culture?
Steve Lillywhite:No, absolutely not. You don't ever when you're young and opinionated. You you. I mean for me, for me it was it was a mixture of fear. I think one of the one of the things I always remember is that I never thought I was good enough. And I still I still take it to me. Right? You know, it's still one of my core beliefs is that there's that there's two very bad emotions. You know, one of them is, is complacency, you know, which I think is one of the worst things, but another one is uncertainty. So if you can somehow move your way through your life without ever being complacent, but also never being uncertain. I mean, there's there's a great strength in that. And I was very lucky that, that, you know, I, I was not I'm not an animal I don't self analyze, because as I say, if you self analyze your work while you're doing it, you can only ever forget, you either like it or you don't like it once it has been finished as a piece of art. And of course, if you like it, there's the element of complacency. And if you don't like it, there's that element of uncertainty, both which I think a negative elements in creativity.
Roy Sharples:So true, the golden rule is to avoid the deadly sin of complacency, and to embrace uncertainty, without fear, to navigate the way forward to discover the new. So be in the moment, be self aware, and resilient, by constantly keeping perspective evolving, and innovating. Otherwise, your star will fall, and the future will leave you behind. When did you realize that you were creative? And then what attracted you to become a producer in the first place?
Steve Lillywhite:Well, I always say that I was just that I'll give you a quick background, I was I was sort of middle class born in 1955. Which I think is probably the greatest era of human social. What's the word where the state provides you with with as much as you need, you know.
Roy Sharples:There was good social system.
Steve Lillywhite:Now that was great, you know, you could pay for for schooling. But the but the comprehensive gave you just as good you could pay for your education, but the states that pay for your dentist or your doctor, or even it came down to the BBC, which was a great, a great thing where it was, you could not bribe the BBC to get your song on the radio. So and they really they, for them, it was all about the art, you know, they and varying systems of music, you know, so, so really, I grew up in a in a wonderful era even before that, you know, but But I, I was no good at school, I managed to get a job in a recording studio purely by, by luck. And then after five years of being in that recording studio, my boss offered us some free time if we wanted to go and practice engineering and producing and, and I took in this band, which was the earliest version of ultravox, which had a singer called John Fox, it wasn't the media as much as I like, as much as Mitch is a nice bloke and a good friend. The John Fox virgin was a little bit more, it was like more of a punky Roxy Music. And, and from then I I, through a series of of, of luck, I managed to work with Siouxsie and the Banshees, and I had my first hit. Now, you know, it's always a catch 22 situation, being a producer, like you only get the work if you've had the hit. But how do you get the work if you haven't had the hit. And all of a sudden, this this wave of punk rock was full of people I always say was full of artists who couldn't play really play their instruments. So what better than a producer who couldn't really produce and that's how I that's how I started off really, certainly after success, I you can either view your success in two different ways. You know, for me, it made me think, oh my god, I can choose to work with some really cool artists. Whereas of course, before the success, why would call artists want to work with me? Who was I? You know, I always looked at it this way that, that you could, it gave me the choice to work with great artists. Now you talk about me as being a creative I don't. I am creative, but what my great skill is, is unlocking creativity within other people. It's like for me, even if it's like the world's biggest band came to me and said, Steve, I want you to produce me. If they said to me, Steve will do whatever you want. I would say no, I'm not the right guy for you. Luckily, not many people do that. The artists I work with all it's like Steve, I've got these 10 ideas, and I go okay, great. Give me the 10 ideas. Let me listen. I'll say that one's good. Yeah, get rid of that one. Get it? No. that one now if you take that bit there, so it's I love taking, I love putting into sort of order the wonderful madness of great creative people. And there's, that's creative in itself, I suppose. Although for many years I, I, I, I didn't really realize that because I just thought what I was doing was very easy. And it was only looking back that I look at my career and I go, wow, I mean, yes, there was late nights, and there was a lot of drama and a lot of hair pulling. But for, for me, it didn't seem like it was that difficult. You know, I was sort of rolling through the ages. And I mean, that was, you know, I mean, I've had success in many decades. But but, you know, I think if you look back around the early ages, which is the time that you were, yeah, wide eyed and innocent and looking on the back of Big Country and going who's this shitty name wonderful band from from from Glasgow called the trash cans, Sinatra's who? I don't know if you ever heard of them. They were so great. And we never really got successful with them. But But I did get success with the with the big country and the Simple Minds and yeah, and Kirsty Of course, who was yes, the McColl I was married to I mean, she was she was from Croydon, but there was never more of a Celtic spirit than her she was, for some reason that Celtic spirits is I can really relate. I have a great empathy towards that sort of, I don't know. I mean, I don't know why. My fucking name Lillywhite is English now!
Roy Sharples:You're right, and that alchemy shows up in your work. Your point around artistic innocence. And the chemistry you sparked with Siouxsie and the Banshees demonstrates the attitude, imagination, and the ambition to do something by making it happen. trumped being technically sophisticated.
Steve Lillywhite:I always thought that, you know, equipment is there to be to be abused rather than use. The thing I found about punk was that it was a fantastic attitude, but a limit of form. I thought to myself that if I'm going to manage to get through this life without ever having to do a proper job, and it was really fear that if I wasn't a successful producer, I would be flipping burgers. There was that fear that that drove me onto wanting to make sure what I did was a hit, or at least was was a wonderful piece of art. Because of course, I really do believe art before commerce, you know, I mean, some people try and make commercial records at my greatest and I think, you know, my art is greatest, we didn't make records for the public, we made records, because we thought they would call. Yeah. And by, you know, and I think maybe America is a different place where, where people look at the bottom line, and they want a successful hit record. But the great thing about the British strong British music scene that we came up from, was that if you looked fantastic, that could actually be enough, it didn't matter. You know, you could be, you know, boy, George, Nate Rhodes. But on the other side, you've got Stuart Adamson and Jim Carr. And, and you know, and Julian Pope, what a wonderful, crazy guy Julian Cope was, you know, and God bless him. So eclectic.
Roy Sharples:It's fascinating that when you name all those names, right, and how different they all were yet, the prop, the record collections and their influences are probably the same. They were all in the pursuit of authentic creative expression, by transcending the ordinary, routine and status quo by manifesting what's inside them and around them to come up with their own unique voice and style. And they did that in a way that was fiercely competitive with one another, which ultimately sparked them on.
Steve Lillywhite:Yeah, it's a very different world that we live in now. And I think just purely, just one interesting fact is that when I always say the main difference between artists now and artists, then is that back in the 80s, especially if you were working on a song, and someone said, Oh, that sounds a little bit like someone else's song. We would immediately drop it. Yeah, because it was there was nothing worse than sounding like someone else. Now. What happens now is that if you sound like someone else, you can immediately access it right? You can listen to every record ever made. Back in those days, we never listened to other people's records in the studio. I know some people did. I never did. But but now it's like, well, good, that sounds like something else. Let's change a few chords and use that as a, as a springboard for our own. You know, whereas we were much more in the, in the process of inventing stuff, or what we thought was inventing it. I mean, occasionally things would sound a bit like someone else but, but it was none of my artists anyway, whenever I say oh, you're good. You know, it's good that it sounds like another bad. If it sounded like another band, we would just we would dismiss it and start on another song.
Roy Sharples:That is so revealing from a fan's perspective, which I wasn't still on. That was how I listened to music. It was to a point where you are anal retentive, a transport an anorak about having a smell for the disingenuous and cleaning the decks to detect any plagiarism and unethical reference points."Oh, that sounds like the riff from Jumpin' Jack Flash," "The intro is a rip from Big Yellow Taxi," or "That's a lyric from Quadrophenia, etc, etc." This was an instant turnoff if the song, album and bond had plagarised by someone else. So originality and authentic creativity were non-negotiable, which I think raised the bar high for original material and let bonds know they were not going to get off with it any other way. I don't believe generations that have came after that are as hardcore, which is also symptomatic of the cut and paste culture from the internet and instant gratification clickbait culture of social media.
Steve Lillywhite:You're right and funny when you say smell that because when you're young, you've got a fucking great sense.
Roy Sharples:You're a purist.
Steve Lillywhite:Yeah, you're right. And, you know, it's, uh, yeah, it was, I was, you know, thinking about it. I was so lucky. You know, I one of my quotes has been that, you know, I'm not sure I would enter the music business. Because I don't want to be a typist. Yeah, and a lot of music now, for better or for worse, because it's only you know, I'm not Luddite. I believe in science, and I believe in technology always. Moving forwards in terms of, of improving, yeah, or you can't stop it. If it makes it worse, then so be it. But but you can't stop technology. You know, that's the human way. You know, we are we have a brain. We can't go otherwise you're in the fucking Taliban as far as i Exactly. You know, and, and so I believe in science. I believe in the experts of science. I believe in all that, you know, there's, I mean, there's some things nowadays in life that are being questioned, that seems to be just, why did we evolve this wonderful, wonderful system of living, that we are now just destroying. Because we don't believe in the expert. You know, we will because we question things.
Roy Sharples:Constantly analyzing and critiquing, questioning and challenging the status quo, in the everyday life to provide an alternative. Every creative will tell you that there is no ON or OFF button for creativity. It's a constant that happens naturally by design, or by accident in our everyday life.
Steve Lillywhite:Or by drugs or by drugs. And because I, you know, I'm actually 24 years, clean and sober. And every single record I made before the 15th of May 1997, was I was either drunk or high on marijuana or doing good. I mean, you know, and it was all part of my career tip period. Now, I got all my Grammys after I got sober. So, and, you know, I, and I've thought about this a lot. And I've, my conclusion is that, yes, the reason a lot of creative people take drugs to become creative is because they're lazy. But in fact, you can get to that point without the drugs, it's just a little bit more difficult. And I'll give you a great example. I always thought that, you know, Amy Winehouse was the sort of real deal, and Adele was slightly dialing it in. Now, if you listen to Adele's newest album, she has reached creative depths of a crazy The sort of Amy Winehouse got to, but she's done it. I know she's not going to die or drugs or anything like that. Yeah, she is what I'm saying. And you know bolo goes to those places, you know, you can get to the ultimate creative place without resorting to that. It's just it's much easier to get high and yeah. And for me, I, as I say I, I, you know, all my grammars have been got so bad. I've been lucky enough to have got six grammars I got them all after I got sober. So, you know, I will now say slightly, controversially, I will say, Well, imagine if Sergeant Pepper's had been done drug free, how good that would have been. But you know, maybe that's not true.
Roy Sharples:All there that the musical movements, especially 1960s 70s, like the hippie movement, right through to the 70s 80s and beyond, like each movement that seemed to have had a drug choice that's connected with the fashion, the style, the sound. It's a fascinating perspective you gave, and also that your crowning successes in terms of industry achievements have been done by being clean.
Steve Lillywhite:You know what? I'm very, I'm very proud of it. And I, you know, no, it's, um, I really believe that I spent all these years trying to find nirvana. You know, and I actually, it is living in the moment is one of those. You know, I'm not at all so I'm a I'm a complete atheist and all that. But there is something about the Buddhist sense of right here right now, that Jesus Jones song?
Roy Sharples:It was a Jesus Jones song; "Right Here Right Now," and also, congratulations for being clean for over 24 years.
Steve Lillywhite:Oh, that's okay. It's one day at a time, and it's very easy to do. And, you know, I'm Joy, I love it. It's great.
Roy Sharples:The creative process may seem magical, especially where ideas can come from, and how they are brought to form and life, but proven techniques, tools, methods, and approaches to the art and science of applied creativity exist to help enable the creative process. Steve, yeah. What is your creative process in terms of how do you make the invisible visible by dreaming up ideas, developing them into concepts, and then bringing them to actualization?
Steve Lillywhite:Well, I always say it's, it's my job as a producer is, is, it's a bit like being a film director, but it's not as dictatorial as a film director, because the film directors are artists don't write their own songs, whereas I work with artists who write their own songs. So I it's always more of a collaboration. So for me, too, part of my creativity is to is to, is to paint is to set a scene for creativity. And that's, you know, a recording studio in general, I've always said, you can do a better performance standing in the toilet than you can, in a recording studio that's dead, with headphones on with a bunch of people at the other side of the glass, looking at you, waiting for you to perform. Now, if you're an artist, and you've never been in a studio before, the idea that what you're about to do is going to be probably defining your whole life. You may, you may just tense up and not do it. It's a bit like giving someone a tennis racket and saying, go straightaway and play the final of Wimbledon. Well, you've not been, you haven't really done, you might have practiced tennis, but you've never been in on the center court. So my job is to sort of, is to train them in, in in real time as well. You know, as I say, it's, it's different now. But back in those days, the idea of, of painting of setting a scene and allowing those people to be so secure in my arms, so secure in my safety blanket, my my safety net, that they can let themselves go and they will know that I will catch them and not let them smash their head on the concrete floor.
Roy Sharples:Steve, I do and I can totally correlate that to other creative environments, right, where you're setting the conditions and atmosphere to allow people to create without fear. You're not sure in part and practice almost cool creatively. With the artists in mind, and that takes skill, practice and persistence.
Steve Lillywhite:So yeah, and it's very important. And there's lots of other little tips, you know, you're like, you, I must never if there's ever any problem with the technical stuff, look, I know many producers who love to say, you know, to shout out their their juniors and say, Hey, that machine's not been lined up properly, you know, oh, my God, you know, and, and just being, then it's all on them. For me, it's never about my ego. If my if any of my artists ever, Steve's worried, then they are not going, then it's going to be the snowball effect. Yeah. Because if they think I'm worried, they're worrying about me being worried. So they're going to get worried. So they're not going to be able to perform and, and let their creative juices run. You know, it's, um, yeah, so it's, and I was very lucky because I was, I'm a, I always say that. My skewed, I'm a bit like in a recordings pudding studio. And I'm a bit like, the lifeguard on the beach, I'm the coolest, you know, I'm the alpha male in a recording studio. Take me out of a recording studio, I'm really not an alpha male. But But I, because I've been in recording studios, since I was 17. It, it's so natural for me to just acquire this, this, this leadership quality, which is, which is not dictatorial, it's like, you know, and you get to. Also another thing is, you get to know when problems are gonna come. And that's also a big thing, you know, if you can stop, because people always say, oh, what happens when you have a problem? Well, you know, one of your jobs is to see the problem ahead of time, and to fix it before it becomes big.
Roy Sharples:So Steve, you're, you're clearly a dreamer, maker and doer with an insatiable curiosity and ambition to make things.
Steve Lillywhite:Having a sense of wonder! Joy and wonder, are my two favorite words, you know, and I, I don't need to have a supreme being who invented me to not have wonder, yeah, the world? You know, I mean, I have absolute wonder at what human beings can pull out of there are six. Yeah, it's really, yeah. Carry on.
Roy Sharples:No, no, no, no, please, I'm enthusiastically jumping in there, that joy and wonder, you know, it doesn't just come through the work that you've done, your energy comes through just speaking to you now. Your energy is contagious. I'm sure you've been, you've been many, many times. authentically, it's not put on it's you!
Steve Lillywhite:You know, it is and I'm lucky that now, you know, I, I haven't, I haven't really been producing for a while, and I'm not sure if I want to produce anymore. I, I used to have this thing that, you know, teachers were just people who couldn't really make it in the real world. And I've changed my mind about that. So I quite like the idea of not not teaching specifics, you know, like, like, you have to use this microphone on. Yes. I mean, for me, that's not important. Because those things can change, you know, but there's certain general things about creativity that I you know, I'm, I certainly, you know, I've given a few lectures and a few things like that, and I quite enjoy espouse espousing a few. A few things that I've learned over the years, you know, which can be, which can be transferred into many creative ways of looking at life.
Roy Sharples:That's a fine place to be. You've been at the summit of your craft for decades, and are now passing the baton to the next generation, by leaving the world in better shape than you found it.
Steve Lillywhite:Well, you know, what, hey, we, we try to ultimately we always fail but, without trying, we're nothing right?
Roy Sharples:Exactly, so having that belief and passion and focus and the dedication and making the sacrifices that you did by putting the hard work. What are the essential skills needed to survive and thrive as a producer, Steve?
Steve Lillywhite:Okay, well, you interestingly, there is a there's a great producer, his name is Bob Rock, and it always made me you know, it was slightly unfortunate that that was his name because I thought well He can only do that one sort of music and he actually did rock music as well. But the know what I mean is that is that for me even back in the early days, when I had success with one artist, you there would be a lot of pressure from these small minded record companies that they will go oh, he had a hit with so and so let let's well he can do this our band who sound a bit like that band who he had success with. Now, I never did that. I use my success to then expand my my repertoire. So So you know, I was very lucky that even though there were times when it seemed like Oh, Steve Lillywhite only does rock bands at the same time, I was producing Joan Armatrading and Peter Gabriel, as well as the Psychedelic Furs and XTC and you do and Simple Minds. And then then I and then during the sort of 90s, I went completely differently and moved to America. And I work with these jam bands like so, you know, did some great records with a band called Dave Matthews Band who are huge in America, and a band called fish and the Counting Crows. So I always wanted to my my sense of wonder, led me to want to work with different styles of music. But always within a certain parameter. I, I also knew that, that if I did something that I wasn't passionate about, then I wouldn't do a good job. You know, and so, so if I would ever turn down your band, it was for your best for your Yeah, you know, it was free for your good as well as my good. You know, because I know that I can't, I can't dial it in ROI. I am not. You know, a lot of producers see I never see it as a job. I see it as a vocation. And the difference between a job and a vocation. And I sometimes I wish it was a job because with a job, you're allowed to complain about it. That's what a job is my fucking boss blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, but with a vocation, it you must have that same joy and wonder that you had that first day when you walked in and go, Oh, my God, this looks like Star Trek. You know, literally, that's that's what you do. And that was what it used to be like in the 80s when someone walked into a studio. That would be the first that would be the only sort of thing people would say it was like, oh, it looks like Star Trek, you know? Yeah. Now, now that sense of wonder for sure. has, you know, recordings, people don't have recording studios anymore. And you know, anyone can make a record in their bedroom, it's technology always leads the art form, you know, the technology will change. And then the art form will change following the technology. It never works the other way around. The technology is invented by boffins. And then the creative people come in and fuck it up. Because no one who invents anything is that creative? In a way. I mean, it's a different sense of creativity, you know. And, you know, you, you go back to like dramas, like back in the 50s, when there were no amplifiers, dramas had to be very quiet, because they had to fit in their sound levels to the orchestra. And then, of course, the technology changed electric guitars and amplifiers, the art form changed, drummers became heavy, and became a completely different sense of art. You see, and what we've had now is the technology has gone from, from real musicians playing to having everything in a computer. And the art form has changed as well to music but that is done like that. And, and it's a different sort of art form. You know, it's an it's not an art form. As I say, I'm not sure if I would be in the music business now if I was born 50 years later, because I think now that it's a much more insular personal, one man job, you know, where you sit at a computer and you and you just type in your beats and then you type in your, your baseline, it's it's very different.
Roy Sharples:Steve, you have a knack of taking complexity and simplifying it into humored easy interpretations got a great one here very quickly.
Steve Lillywhite:This is one of my new ones. Which is is is my my my take on American culture is mediocrity hides behind choice Which is great, right? Because I think if you have too much choice, everything can be mediocre. If you, you know, if you have a restaurant that only serves one thing, it better be fucking good, or else it goes out of business.
Roy Sharples:That's so true. And you know something as well, that comment there that statement there, Steve, it's so symptomatic of how society has become, you know, like, the political correctness of things, the lack of true freedom of expression. It's all about context, having respect for everyone's individuality. Of course, idiosyncrasies exist, though, fundamentally, people are the same everywhere and that we are born, live and die. We have loves, hates and passions, the brain, nerves, organs and skin are the same biotic structure. We breathe, drink and eat, to stay alive. But what makes us unique is how we self identify by interpreting the world around us discovering our strengths, and expressing our personalities, talents, and triumphs, therefore, people with an axe to grind, please think twice about over catastrophizing, and allowing people to make art that is an expression of them, than having to check box standard criteria that ultimately drive uniformed mediocrity.
Steve Lillywhite:You know, I'm as liberal as the next guy, and honestly, I am. But I also believe in to laugh at yourself. You know, Ricky Gervais really sums it up so much better than me. It's all in the context, as we know, you know, you can be nasty to someone if it's not in the right context, it can be hurtful. You know, we, we grew up with, you know, John Cleese, and great British humor was, it's something I hold so dear to myself. And I don't want to be suddenly told that it's not acceptable anymore. You know, and look, I understand. I understand, you know, I go back to, to bigotry and all that. Yes. But I don't know. It's very difficult. You know, and I've got young kids, and they, you know, I was having an argument with my daughter about Happy Holidays versus Merry Christmas. I'd say hello. I'm a complete atheist. But I grew up saying Merry Christmas. Not for any religious reasons, but it was just what we did. Now you telling me because she's American. And she said, Are you telling me to say happy holidays? That's just as that you putting your culture onto me? Right. You know, and that and you know, yes, I understand that some people don't celebrate Christmas. Yes, I do get that. And America is. I don't know. It's a very difficult difficult thing to to, to navigate because young people especially I mean, look, I you know, do you know fairy tale of New York this across Yeah, yeah. Well, that's, you know, for many many years, they the lyric goes, you scumbag. You magnet. Yeah. Obviously Taggarts Happy Christmas. You're outside. Very good. It's our last and that was perfectly acceptable and it was played on the radio now. I'm saying that the BBC which I actually you know, I think it's a great institution still, although a little bit stuffy. But but they they've come up with a pretty good although interesting fix for that because they managed to find a version of Kirsty singing on Top of the Pops. Your cheapen your haggard, instead of which was a one off tape that she did on Top of the Pops about 10, just before she was killed, actually. And they managed to tape the vocal of her on Top of the Pops, cut it in to the actual record. So they had two versions of her singing when she you know, but what was interesting was the one on radio two, which is like the old person's station, is the original version, but the one that they play on Radio One is the is the is the edited version with the less offensive lyric because they think young people are more offended now than we were back in those days.
Roy Sharples:Upon reflection Steve, what are the lessons learned in terms of the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to success to being a producer that you can share with aspiring and existing producers?
Steve Lillywhite:Okay, well, absolutely. Complacency is something that we should really never, never, you know, and that's again, I'll go on about the the you should never be The artist is always the most important person for a producer. So your ego should never be part of the equation, you should always serve the music first, the artists second, and your needs as a as a as a producer that are always to help the greater good. But also, I, I always have a great analogy about about artists, I always say to artists, look, you can try and make it in music, you can try and make money in music, but I equated to the to the New York Marathon. I always think that, you know, I'll never say to an artist stop making music. And it's like the marathon, it's like the marathon is full of 40,000 people who always want to run, I would never tell them, don't run them out. But for me, the only ones I'm interested are those five Ethiopians at the front. To be honest, everyone else can do their fun run. But as a producer, I want those five Ethiopians, those are the people I'm interested in. Because there are so many people and so part of your your job as a producer is to is to inspire people to become one of those five front runners in the marathon, but also to help choose the right people to become the front runners in the marathon. You know, it's so it's a mix of, of skill of now, look, I was very lucky that, you know, how do you know who the WHO THE who the who the creative ones are? Well, it's a mixture of like, the smell that you have, like we, you, you you summed it up succinctly when you said you could smell someone who wasn't real. And you know, you have that great sense of smell when you're young and full of wonder. So it's a mixture of that is a but it's also the mixture of the experience. And I was very lucky that I was even at the age of 23, I'd had five years in a recording studio. Now. No one else in those days, was an expert in a recording studio after five years at the age of 23. No artists, you know, they they they've been playing in a little in a little rehearsal room. Yeah, you know, so. So to go into a studio and to have one of their ill, you know, someone who they knew to be in charge, and to help them navigate, what is the most important thing in their life, without them realizing it? Sometimes. That's a big skill, you know, I would do things like I would take Jim Carr off to have a game of table tennis, or we did a vocal. And we would, you know, we would spend a long time just talking about anything, but what we were about to do, you know, it was a case of preparing him. And then after the table tennis, which I normally won, by the way, because it was always my thing, you know, but I would let them win one or two games. Now. I'm joking. It was very, it was very, you know, we got very competitive with that. And then when it came to going in to do the music, it was like, Okay, let's go do a vocal. And it was like, this youth club. mentality that I like to try and you know, just try and allow creative people to be creative. And I'm, they're sort of steering this thing. And by, you know, a mix of instinct and fear, but mainly having my synapses there all the time, to to understand what's going on this living organism of what a rock band was. But all of this this eloquent, eloquent sorts of describing what you did, has only come later in life when I look back and go, Oh, that's what you did. At the time, you sort of do it. Because it's what you're what you love, and you've got and the sense of wonder, is far greater than your sense of analyzing
Roy Sharples:Apple and Spotify changed how we purchase and consume music through digital streaming, arguably making it more convenient and affordable to consume music. The internet and social media have become intrinsic to our daily life and routine, to the point where our brains have become overloaded with information and destruction. So we are using our imaginations to disrupt and start a revolution within a society can assumed with easy gratification and immediate success in a world saturated with consumer land, celebrity culture, where everyone looks the same, and everything is for sale. Steve, what's your vision for the future of music? And the role of authentic creativity will play?
Steve Lillywhite:Oh, well, it's, as I say, the technology has pretty much ground to a halt in the last five years. And when the technology doesn't change the art form, is questionable how it changes. So I think right now we're at a, you know, we have great songwriters, we have, you know, singers are better now than they've ever been in the history of human race, auto tune to start with made made singers in tune. But now people listen to auto tune singers, and they've learned how to be great singers. So the human race is a great is very in tune singing wise artists should try their best to do something different. You know, I mean, it's very difficult when you don't have the technology always changing, to be able to fuck with the technology to make more creative art. I think it's very difficult. But as I say, you do have, you know, I mean, someone like Ed Sheeran, there's no question that, I mean, yes, I can hear the songs he listens to before he writes a song, you know, I know where he comes from. But, but every now and again, you're always amazed by something that touches you. And, you know, a sense of wonder is very important. You know, as I say, it's, I can't, I can't say this strongly enough. You know, I think, if artists now have lost the innocence, of, of, of music, and that, you know, I remember you to right at the very beginning, they only knew about five albums, because in Dublin, you couldn't get records. So it was like, you know, that they, they hardly listened to any music. So, you know, television that that band is that was, you know, so. So yeah, it's, I think the, the limitations make for great art, we know that. You know, I did an album with Peter Gabriel, he said to me, Steve, I don't want any symbols played on this album, and all of a sudden, I went, Oh, no symbols, that means I can really experiment with my ambience, and my, and my, you know, and all of a sudden, we invented this whole new drum sound that came out. And that's became like the 80s drum sound, purely because Peter Gabriel said, I don't want symbols on my record, you know, one little statement of, of art being limited and being brought down, you know, so, yeah, I'm always I always like to try and put limitations on. You know, we would always back in those days. Well, Sergeant Pepper's was made on four track. And it's such a varied record. You look at nowadays, you have unlimited sound, and opportunities for recording. Why does everything sound the same? You know, it's, it's, it's a, it's a conundrum, Roy.
Roy Sharples:Your point about innocence Steve, is a damn good one! One of our most fundamental life needs is to create creativity, as a core discipline, like reading, writing, and arithmetic. It is not incidental, and nice to have as a way of life. Pablo Picasso believed all children are artists, but they lose their creativity when they grow up. So grow into not out of creativity. And don't give up the dreams of your childhood and your approach to the world through a child's eyes. And to your point, Steve, with without wonder and joy. It isn't something lost with age, but rather a skill we often neglect to practice. The challenge is not learning new things, as this will inevitably happen as we explore, travel, learn and grow. Instead, the challenge is keeping our childlike wonder and imagination alive. And having the courage to combine those things with our new experiences and insight.
Steve Lillywhite:Yeah, and going to the depths, I think really dig into the depths needs a lot of effort. Now, technology has stopped has somehow enabled us to get something in quotes, good without the effort, you know, and sometimes the effort required is the is part of the creative process. Whereas now if you can just dial it In the best drum sound in the world, the best this the best that then are, you know, it's too easy? Maybe that's the case, you know, effort requires a you know, creativity requires? He does well look, say take my great friends you too. You know, Adam, the bass player is is fantastic one of my best friends in the world. But you know, he would say that, that his baselines are sometimes very simple. So what they have to do is that they have to write a song that has a baseline that goes bumbum, bumbum, bumbum, bumbum, bumbum, bumbum, bumbum, bumbum bumbum? You know, he can't he can't be a fancy bass player. Anyway, there you go.
Roy Sharples:Of all the records you've produced? Which one do you think about the most?
Steve Lillywhite:I don't think about many of them very often. But one thing that I do remember was that the big country had been everyone, you know, it was they got signed post skids. And, and they had a producer called Chris Thomas, who was like, fantastic. Go in and work with them. And it didn't work out very well. And then all of a sudden, the record company were a little bit like, Oh, if Chris Thomas can't do it, we're a little bit stuck. So they asked me to go in, and I produced a song with them just a single first to see how it went a song called fields of fire. Yeah, and I always, and I always remember finishing that song. And Stuart Adamson, the singer and main guy from big country, just being so full of just listening to it and going, Oh my God, that's the sound that I've been wanting, you know, and it was any, and, and him going home that night and writing in a big country. Wow. And, you know, so, so probably, to as a producer, you know, that the greatest thing to be able to do is to is to be able to inspire someone to just, you know, to do something like that. So I, you know, we're a big country I was so you know, and I listened back to, especially some of the 12 inch mixes, I did have some of those songs. There's a song called Wonderland, you should listen to the 12 remix of Wonderland. It's, it's pretty out there. I mean, it's,
Roy Sharples:This is gonna make me start listening to it differently. I'm not just saying that right. But, um, and I've listened a big company for a very long time. So they've inspired me to do that. Okay, next one; Artist you most want to produce but haven't(yet)?
Steve Lillywhite:Okay, well, this one will never happen because David Bowie is dead. And I'm, you know, I'm not sure what it's all about timing of people's careers. Yeah. Well, you know, it's like, you know, would I want to produce Paul McCartney now? No, I don't think I would. I don't think his voice has sounded any good on any record for the last 20 years. But you know what, what I've produced wings are good. I loved wings as much as nearly as much as the Beatles, you know? Yeah. There's some fantastic songs there. So, yeah, I think David Bowie, you know, was my artist album you wished you produced but didn't hunky dory for me, you know, and it's funny. I went back, it's 50 years since "Hunky Dory" was released.
Roy Sharples:It's ridiculous, isn't it?
Steve Lillywhite:Yeah. I went back and I and I, and I was reading about it. And it said that hunky dory and Ziggy Stardust were recorded within three months of email. And I thought, oh, which, which one is the better album now? And I listened to the two of them and I have to say, hunky dory far exceeds Ziggy Stardust, Ziggy Stardust was a little bit just boring. You know, it's just hunky dory had the flowery piano and miserable acoustics and this whole thing was Ziggy Stardust was just like, you know, sort of power chords on it. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And it'll be more are a Wk you know, admittedly with a sort of stooges punky thing to it, but, but still, it didn't last for me. It didn't last the test of time, like hunky dory did, which still, for me, is just the most amazing records of all time. And also, I mean, Joni Mitchell as well, I think Joni is a great artist.
Roy Sharples:Totally! Most creative artist you've produced?
Steve Lillywhite:Oh, most creative. Well, you've got I would probably say you too, but but but that's a combination of, of create of, of someone like the edge being, being very creative, but sometimes a little bit It's sort of dreary, and Bono who is not so creative at all, but has the biggest Napoleon complex. You know, I know he will say that. I mean, he's, you know, you know, he's known as the little fella. Has anyone seen the little fella? But no, he is just so. So driven, you know, and, and his heart is so big. So yeah, I think he's, you know, a great band has, you know, it's not about one of the things that absolutely pisses me off. And I've heard this from producers over the years, who take great pride in saying, Ah, you know, I made that That album was a hit, but I had to sack the drummer. Yeah, and it's, oh my god, maybe the drummer was the person who formed the band, maybe the drummer is the reason that the band is good. It's not just a drumming. It's an ecosystem, that that drummer is part of, you know, and very often this producer who says I had to fire the drummer and the album's ahead, but they never have another hit album. Because he has pulled up art. He's taken a limb from that being, you know, and who He Who am I to say that? So if I think maybe the drummer is not good enough, but let's face it nowadays, you know, with time you can get a great performance out of anyone. I don't believe that. But if I really did think I didn't like the drummer enough, I just wouldn't do the record. I you know, your mind, who am I to tell a band that their drummer is not good enough? When I when that drummer look REM I loved REM never had a hit record after their drummer left. Yeah, they had the best session guys in the world playing for them. But who knows what the drummer so, you know, I, you understand what I'm saying there, Roy Boy?
Roy Sharples:I totally am Steve! The most underwhelming production experience you've had?
Steve Lillywhite:I don't think I ever did. Because part of my job as a producer is to decide to do it in the first place. That's a choice, you know, because once I'm in, I'm in Yeah. And I am completely 100% responsible for that record. Once I say I'll do it. So I have to be absolutely sure that I can do it. You know, so very rarely have I? You know, I haven't made a great record every time I did an album with a girl singer called Toya. Well, you know, to be honest, I mean, as nice as she was. I think the reason I did it was because she was the biggest female singer in England at the time. And and of course, that's not the biggest reason to do someone's album. Yeah. So he, it wasn't successful. And so, you know, I know that that my choice to do your record is a very big production decision in the first place. So I take that as a very, I take that very importantly.
Roy Sharples:Who would be in your supergroup: the singer, the guitarist, the basis that the keyboard player and the drummer?
Steve Lillywhite:Okay. I saw this question earlier and, and I thought I would reverse it because someone said I saw one of these silly things on the internet that said, has anyone realized that the only living members of The Beatles are a bass player? Only living members of the Rolling Stones are a singer and a guitar is what if, and I'm just thinking that would probably be the worst band in the world. Keith Richards, Paul McCartney and Ringo Starr.
Roy Sharples:As a singer, who would you choose between Jim Kerr, Morrissey, Bono, or David Byrne.
Steve Lillywhite:Purely as a singer, I would say Bano because you know Bono is Frank Sinatra. There's no question. But I mean Morrissey is also Frank Sinatra. He's a brilliant singer when he sings something he believes in. He's a terrible singer if he sings his own lyrics that he doesn't believe in, right as well. So David Byrne, he's a very creative man. There's no question about it. And Morrissey is Morrissey is the weirdest man I've ever worked. I mean, Morrissey just he doesn't look at music the same way as a musician does and that's a wonderful thing. Yeah, he looks at it completely as a...who knows? Yeah. That can be for another, podcast...
Roy Sharples:For sure. The last one; the guitarist Johnny Marr, The Edge or Charlie Burchill?
Steve Lillywhite:Oh, they all do different roles. I mean, I loved Charlie birchas guitar playing purely because we'll say that the difference between Simple Minds and YouTube in general was that the Simple Minds that was the best version of Simple Minds was always led by Derek Forbes, lead baselines. I mean, if you if you promised your miracle today don't don't after. I mean, fantastic. It was never really the guitar was sort of dancing in the background. And it was this wonderful baseline that was that was leading the the phrase I love Charlie for that now. Johnny Marr, you know, a fantastic Yeah, again, Johnny an edge, very similar in that, that I would probably go for the edge. Just because he the edge can spend a week looking for a sound and the actual performing part he can do in about three minutes.
Roy Sharples:Wow. That's amazing.
Steve Lillywhite:You know, I mean, it's, it's for him, it's not. He very he virtually never gets a plays a wrong note, or anything like Johnny is is very creative. And I but I haven't worked with Johnny as much as Angel Charlie, you know, Johnny was like always, he would come and play on the beat on the talking heads a bit with Kirsty. I mean, we spent as much time in just coming around our house and listening to records as I did in the studio with him.
Roy Sharples:Great, Steve, this has been fantastic, thank you so much!
Steve Lillywhite:Oh, my pleasure!
Roy Sharples:Do you want to learn more about how to create what I'm frontiers by unleashing your creative power? Then consider getting "CREATIVITY WITHOUT FRONTIERS: How to make the invisible visible by lighting the way into the future." It's available in print, digital and audio on all relevant book platforms. You have been listening to the Unknown Origins podcast. Please follow subscribe, rate and review us. For more information go to unknownorigins.com Thank you for listening.